Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 111 posts

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#41

Post by fencepost »

Does AirBnB not have a way to report illegal/unauthorized rentals? I'd think they'd want something like that just to avoid the problem of their renter customers finding themselves locked out, charged with trespass, etc.

Or is the notification process paying a process server to deliver a subpoena for "all information you possess about 123 Any Street, all persons or other entities related to that address, including listers, renters or tenants, and any other information on your possession including customer service contacts." Basically enough to say 'you listed this and failed to remove it promptly when advised that it was illegally listed, so we're going after you for all fines accrued after we notified you, plus damages and legal fees.'

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#42

Post by MichaelBurge »

ryan-c wrote: post #36
MichaelBurge wrote: post #27

Is it feasible to write "Tenant agrees to pay all city-related fines caused by their intentionally renting the property on sites like AirBNB" into the lease, and tell the city they can collect directly from the tenant?

Why would the city take responsibility for enforcing a contract they are not a party to?

The goal of making AirBNB rentals a crime in the first place is to reduce the number of them. I claim it would be a more effective deterrent to go after the tenants who are profiting, rather than the homeowners who already have no incentives to allow it.

The article mentions the tenant stole some furniture that ended up on two additional listings. If the city went after them, they can nab a serial offender which seems more valuable for reducing the number of illegal AirBNB listings than going after an unaware homeowner.

The contract wouldn't be an obligation of the city, but rather a useful tool to enforce the law.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#43

Post by mahyarm »

Judgmentality wrote: post #3

Man, the more I read stories like this about AirBnB the more I want them to fail. People hate regulations until they get screwed, and suddenly they understand that sometimes regulations exist for a reason. Beyond that though, what I despise is that AirBnB seems to reap all the profits and accept none of the blame. They fought to avoid paying taxes and whined when they lost, they refuse to take down listings when pres…

The regulation is what is screwing the owner in this case. It's a simple ban on short term renting. If it didn't exist then it would just be a civil lease agreement violation and far less painful.

AirBnB went wrong in this case because they don't have a good property owner support channel to remove bad properties like this.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#44

Post by arkades »

pjc50 wrote: post #12

It's not great, and I have no sympathy for tenants who trash properties - but this seems like a result of being an absentee landlord with an inadequate local agent. I have to say that in this situation I'd probably change the locks immediately and sort it out in court later; it's not clear what it means to "evict" tenants who aren't living at the property but instead are illegally subletting it. (Also, jurisdictions…

"Changing the locks and sorting it out later" is incredibly illegal. Your "advice" is useless.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#45

Post by greendata »

mark212 wrote: post #7
danaris wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Beyond that though, what I despise is that AirBnB seems to reap all the profits and accept none of the blame. I dunno; it seems to me that in these cases, the people who are really to blame are the "tenants" who are actually breaking both laws and rental agreements. I'm puzzled as to why the property owners aren't suing them to recover all the money they lost. I mean, yeah, lawsuits cost money, too, but when you're…

Because these tenants have no money. If they did, they'd likely be buying properties and listing them instead of doing these illegal sublets. The landlords in the area will likely drastically increase the rental deposit (unless it's limited by state or local law to some multiple of the monthly rent). That's the only real security against a tenant.

Exactly, the landlord will win in court but never collect from the tenant. The landlord should sue Airbnb directly in small claims court.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#46

Post by techsupporter »

aidos wrote: post #37
techsupporter wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Man, the more I read stories like this about AirBnB the more I want them to fail. People hate regulations until they get screwed, and suddenly they understand that sometimes regulations exist for a reason. Frankly, I feel the same about every single one of the prominent "sharing economy" / "gig economy" companies. Uber/Lyft and AirBnB just seem to be the worst of them because they're the most visible of the visible…

I'm interested to hear more about how Uber behaviour is inconsiderate. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the company itself - but the experience itself seems to be all round good. In the U.K. the drivers need to be registered for private hire and pay the appropriate insurance. In my experience the drivers abide by the law, are friendly and have nice clean cars. The service itself is miles better than traditional minic…

> I'm interested to hear more about how Uber behaviour is inconsiderate.

Certainly, and I think I can sum up why you and I have different experiences in another quote:

> In the U.K.

Your government didn't bend to the "but they're just shaaaaaaring so being licensed is haaaaard" bullshit that many governments here did. (Austin, Texas tried to pull it off and the Legislature of the State of Texas smacked them, hard.)

I live in Seattle. The vast majority of Uber (and Lyft) drivers here are on the "UberX" platform so they're virtually unlicensed--except for a basic city permit and a regular driving license--and have no identifying markings except for a standard vehicle license plate. This makes complaining to any regulatory agency about them problematic and while their behavior in traffic is illegal, it is also difficult for traffic police to be everywhere to write the myriad of citations that could result.

Uber/Lyft drivers know this and the minuscule risk of getting caught is vastly outweighed by getting a crappy rating by picking up a passenger a few feet away in a loading zone versus right in the middle of the bus stop where the passenger has dropped the pickup pin.

That's just one of my huge heap of complaints about how the "ridesharing" drivers actually pilot their vehicles. Making a U-turn in the middle of traffic to pick up a fare that's just popped up on their screen is another. But it really gets my goat how they use bus lanes and bus stops as their own private pickup and drop off areas because that one person in that one car is stopping the 40 of us on the damn bus from getting where we need to go. And Uber/Lyft drivers are almost always the ones doing it. I've very rarely seen a liveried taxicab act like that.

Maybe taxicabs do actually drive as bad or worse as "ridesharing" drivers do. Maybe the don't-call-them-taxis are just more plentiful so they're more visible. I don't know for certain but I'm well and truly sick of it.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#47

Post by 5555624 »

ameister14 wrote: post #26

Behavior like this will lead to Airbnb being sued until a point where they recognize it is cheaper to put a zip-code blacklisting system in than continue to break the law. Right now they make money from this behavior. It's a poor long term strategy that made sense when they were small and scrappy but is no longer acceptable. Also, they're losing public support - I've used airbnb for years in SF and around the country…

It's never been acceptable. From the start, Airbnb should have never accepted ads from locations where short-term rentals are against the law. As you said, black list by Zip Code. In addition, they need a way to block addresses on a case-by-case basis where tenants are violating leases/rules (i.e. cases like the one in the article, condo associations, apartment buildings, etc.).

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#48

Post by mcculley »

WalterBright wrote: post #38
yardie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They leave the notice on the door. Tenant will typically take it down and toss it in the trash. And like a speeding parking tickets the fines get sent to the owner on record. Which is public record.

The government is more than capable of fining the tenant.

How would the government know who the tenant is? I don't know how it works elsewhere, but where I live (Florida), there is no legal registration of tenants for leased properties.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#49

Post by lobster_johnson »

cperciva wrote: post #25

I don't understand. The city is levying fines against... the victim of a break and enter?

Illegal subletting isn't breaking and entering, though.

A home is ultimately the home owner's responsibility; if your tenants break the law, you're likely responsible, which is why contracts typically disallow subletting (as well as contain many other clauses to prevent putting the owner at risk). This is why absentee owners with no property manager are putting themselves at a risk, as they can't check on the tenants very easily.

Re: Homeowners faced an Airbnb nightmare as renters left them facing huge fines

#50

Post by x0x0 »

mahyarm wrote: post #43
Judgmentality wrote: post #3

Man, the more I read stories like this about AirBnB the more I want them to fail. People hate regulations until they get screwed, and suddenly they understand that sometimes regulations exist for a reason. Beyond that though, what I despise is that AirBnB seems to reap all the profits and accept none of the blame. They fought to avoid paying taxes and whined when they lost, they refuse to take down listings when pres…

The regulation is what is screwing the owner in this case. It's a simple ban on short term renting. If it didn't exist then it would just be a civil lease agreement violation and far less painful. AirBnB went wrong in this case because they don't have a good property owner support channel to remove bad properties like this.

At first blush, allowing the owner to exclude addresses from rental seems reasonable. But if an airbnb host is willing to violate their lease, why isn't that person willing to fake ownership? How far should airbnb be required to go to verify ownership, and what happens when ownership changes?

To be honest, these people sound like shitty, lazy landlords who deserve their bad tenants. They

1 - didn't do a reference check;

2 - didn't swing by occasionally (even every couple months) to verify the condition of their property;

3 - were renting property out and hadn't bothered to provide neighbors their contact info in case of problems;

4 - quite possibly (this is highly variable / city by city) hadn't notified the city they were renting these units, or the city would have sent the fines to them rather than (presumably) to the tenants.

(I say this as a landlord). They feel they are entitled to take out a mortgage then collect checks without any work. It isn't that easy...

Post reply on HN