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Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

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Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#61
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so everyone is aware, the argument that blog post makes is extremely tenuous at best, and blatant disinformation at its worst. The argument is, basically, 'someone on reddit was doing stuff in China, then stopped a few years ago. A few years ago, Naomi Wu a.k.a SexyCyborg started using reddit.' Here's that same argument again: Isaac Asimov wrote a lot of stuff, then he stopped. Around the same time he stopped, I…

Christ, none of the issue is with women using tools. It's everything but that. The blog post's focus is clearly that someone as apparently young and busy as this isn't merely a jack of all trades, but a master. Gender isn't what is making people stop and think here. >I'm just going to tell you, OP, and everyone who agrees with you right now: fuck off. This kind of debate shutdown is better suited to Facebook politica…

Ever meet Jeri Ellsworth? She's usually in Silicon Valley and fairly visible. She can do both software and hardware. She made money selling a box with a joystick that connected to a TV and all the Commodore-64 games in it. She built race cars as a teenager. She's now working on augmented reality, while fooling around with ham radio.

Jeri is one of those rare people who thinks things through from first principles. She does mods few people would think to try - changing the frequencies of crystals through vapor deposition, spin-coating her own wafers, and converting a satellite receiver to a radar transmitter by reversing a transistor in the low-noise amp.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#62
post #60

Interesting to see the _very_ strong parallels to Japanese culture here. For everyone arguing about whether this is true of all Chinese culture, of course there is innovative thinking in China, Wu is simply pointing out that in places where people aren't getting paid to innovate but rather are there to do a 9-5 job, there is little (and, in many cases, negative) incentive culturally to think outside the box and push…

I don't think people half assing 9-5 jobs they have no interest in is unique to Chinese culture. It's actually a pretty universal thing in every country I've lived in.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#63

Since we are on the topic of idiom, this one rings true: “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down”. Unless you’re the boss of the company you rarely stand to profit from problem solving or creative thinking — and usually speaking up will be detrimental to you in some way. Are American companies that different? The few places I've worked software engineers didn't get bonuses, only the people in sales did. Software…

It may not be bonuses exactly, but pointing to initiatives you've started that were adopted by the company, or problems you've found and fixed, is good ammunition when angling for a raise or promotion in Western companies. I have a feeling the bigger problem is keeping someone up the management tree from you from stealing the credit (and depending on how many levels of management there are, at least some of that will likely happen, and that's no necessarily a bad thing, managers are judged by the accomplishments of the people under them).

This article makes it sound like China in fundamentally different in that respect.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#64
Avoiding the sentiment of the other comments here (which are not completely confusing, but nonetheless a little over my head), I have a practical question:

How does one relate to and incentivize the Chinese people, then? Where are good places to start learning more?

Context/example:

I'm tentatively interested in approaching China from a "hobbyist with a tiny bit of money" standpoint. I want to do limited runs (3 to 4 zeros, or if circumstances allow, less!) of small handheld electronic devices - PCB, thin removable enclosure, possibly some buttons/keys on the front.

Plastic caps directly over tactile buttons is cheap and compact, but rubber-dome systems seem to have a higher-quality finish. The challenge here is that rubber-dome "mats" are likely expensive to tool for, while sticking the dome under a plastic cap means extra thickness. I'd need to find out what my options are here (if I could achieve making a small keyboard, with full key-click - like the Psion Series 5 or HP palmtops - that would be amazing).

As a separate thing, I'm also really fascinated by the chip-on-board techniques used to manufacture credit-card-thin solar calculators. It would be amazingly fun to be able to play with those manufacturing techniques, but going on the cheapness and sheer numbers of devices like this out in the wild (and the fact that I'm seeing the same designs on eBay as I saw in electronics catalogues from 1999!), it seems reasonable to think that the tooling to make these is probably eye-watering, sadly. But I don't know.

I'm not asking for solutions or answers to these problems/questions here (although if anyone wants to comment...); they're just for context. My point is that I have no idea how or where to start in terms of contacting people and going through all the machinery; I know the volume I can promise is effectively nil, and I read this article from the standpoint of knowing I have an extra job of convincing to do because of that.

I also recently read https://lwn.net/Articles/504865/ (found in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15138028; replies say the main focus of the (2012) article is outdated; I'm curious if the bits I'm quoting are relevant). It's a transcript of a talk about some teething problems with trying to do runs of hardware to run KDE on. It reads

> ... the manufacturers are "all about volume" ...

and

> Because the volume of devices that [Make Play Live] could promise to sell was fairly low, the manufacturer had little interest in consulting or even notifying the company about the changes.

and

> In the Q&A session, Seigo further explained some of the problems that MPL had run into. Unless it can promise a quarter of a million (or some other six-digit number) of units, MPL won't be able to get any input into the process.

This info will likely be old hat to some. But I begin to wonder that whoever agrees to do small production runs will just be amusedly humoring me - because if the speaker of the transcripted talk linked above said '"Our order is a rounding error"'... what does that make my run? (Would it even need a receipt? :P)

So I'm interested to understand Chinese culture more - particularly with manufacturing, and in terms of learning more about the tech scene - so I know how and where and the best place(s) to jump in.

I read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15138739 a couple of days ago; to quote:

> ... [T]he most impressive I've seen were some calculators I saw in Shenzhen a few years ago which looked like simple solar-powered 4-function ones, but were actually programmable and had several tens of KB of memory. Trying to use that functionality with a 8-digit 7-segment display, however, was quite challenging.

That's awesome. That's the sort of thing I mean by "scene" and what I want to learn tons more about.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#65

Since we are on the topic of idiom, this one rings true: “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down”. Unless you’re the boss of the company you rarely stand to profit from problem solving or creative thinking — and usually speaking up will be detrimental to you in some way. Are American companies that different? The few places I've worked software engineers didn't get bonuses, only the people in sales did. Software…

> Are American companies that different? The few places I've worked software engineers didn't get bonuses, only the people in sales did. Software engineers are seen as a resource.

People in sales don't get a bonus because they're not viewed as a resource, they get a bonus because they hit a sales target for eg the year and their pay is often determined in part through sales goals. All employees are generally viewed as a resource by management.

It's not uncommon for software engineers to get an annual bonus, that's particularly true if things are going well and it's also commonly true for any higher value employees (software engineers commonly earn 2x to 4x the median income in the US).

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#66
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NSFW in US - for better or worse

Thats more her style, not doing it for attracting attention, more because shes interested in modifying her body EDIT: not sure where the downvote came from, you can read about it from her own pastebin

> Thats more her style, not doing it for attracting attention, more because shes interested in modifying her body

You're probably getting downvoted for that premise. It's blatantly obvious she's using it to drive views on YouTube (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that). Even her name is intentionally pointed toward that: SexyCyborg; she's telling you right there what she's doing. It would be just as obvious if it were some hot guy that did every video of his with his shirt off. It's no different from Howard Stern shock-jocking for listeners, or the thousand times Jenna Marbles leveraged her looks to push views, or Matthew McConaughey taking his shirt off on camera. It's always obvious what they're doing and why.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#67
> Few Chinese companies promote engineering staff internally or even compensate them particularly well, so there’s little incentive to put an idea forward that may result in additional work and time away from their families.

Too much forced analogy. This one is just plain out of context. Even people dont want to be educated in public, that does not translate who do the job doesn't get paid.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#68
Another interesting cultural bit from the same author on chinese collaboration:

> You know how overseas Chinese students in America all copy each others work to get answers? This workflow scale. How we work when older too. So if I have a question I open up QQ and have a few hundred friends. We all help each other with whatever. Many are engineers or work in factories here in Shenzhen. Most of the electronics in the world are made here and a lot of them designed and engineered here also. So easy to get very very professional help. This network has been called gongkai. Also why so many hardware startup here.

Found from the author's comment history on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/3c9l2m/my_diy_underlit....

She seems to have a lot of (culturally) interesting opinions in general: https://www.reddit.com/user/SexyCyborg/comments/?sort=top

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#69
post #6
post #4

> For Chinese, this means you think you know better than a professional, than experts. It’s the act of seeing something and saying “why don’t they do this instead?”. Traditionally, this is viewed as extremely arrogant and certainly not something to be encouraged in children or anyone else. > Simply put, in a strictly hierarchical society, proposing a solution missed by your superiors is at the very least perceived as…

Surely it's not true everywhere. Most of us have known plenty of Chinese engineers who are unafraid to report bugs and suggest solutions. But in the broad sense you mean: yeah, kinda. Chinese companies (in the PRC in particular of course, but also outfits the stem from Hong Kong and Taiwan) tend not to be particularly innovative. It's a lagging market, filled with well-implemented but fundamentally cloned products fi…

That used be the case. But now you have companies like DJI and others that have learned the pages out of the Western playbook and now out-innovate everyone.

Re: Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers

#70

> Few Chinese companies promote engineering staff internally or even compensate them particularly well, so there’s little incentive to put an idea forward that may result in additional work and time away from their families. Too much forced analogy. This one is just plain out of context. Even people dont want to be educated in public, that does not translate who do the job doesn't get paid.

Yeah...Baidu/Tencent/Alibaba pays engineers REALLY WELL, comparing to the local standard.

Software engineering are already the best paid job category[1], outpacing finance, for Chinese university graduates, as the best profession to go to. I would say that is not the case here in US, where engineers are well paid, but the still far from the envy of everyone, which would be lawyers and doctors.

1. http://www.chinanews.com/sh/2016/05-16/7871331.shtml (in Chinese though)

Side notes: It is pretty interesting to read those articles try to analyze Chinese or East Asian people in general as they are machines from the same factory tagged with serial number. I cannot see how that could give you really insightful conclusions that generalize to 1.4 Billion people.

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