U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#141

Post by corporateslave3 » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

kartickv wrote: post #38

jdhn wrote: post #22

"They're just asking for the moon, and not expecting to pay very much for it," Cappelli says. "And as a result they [can't] find those people. Now that [doesn't] mean there was nobody to do the job; it just [means] that there was nobody at the price they were willing to pay." In my opinion, this is the key paragraph in the article. I see this all the time when recruiters send me job postings, and they want someone wi…

But maybe the job isn't economically worth it at the higher salary? You seem to be assuming it's worth doing at any price, as does the article, and that's untrue. Besides, I don't know about others, but I've recently put out multiple job ads for one vacancy. Our app, Noctacam, uses computational photography to take great photos at night. I was looking for someone with computational photography knowledge and/or iOS. A…

If the job isnt worth the salary, then the business isnt fungible

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#142

Post by Kurtz79 » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

expertentipp wrote: post #104

Kurtz79 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"These are salaries much below the market rate." Are you really comparing US market rate, which even varies inside the US, with that of Eastern Europe ? Or are you saying that USD 40K is much below market rate in Eastern Europe ? In the latter case I'll have to ask for sources, because my experience differs greatly.

So Eastern Europe deserves low salaries? Mind you - cars, clothes, petrol, electronics there are more expensive (sic) than in US and cost the same as in more developed EU countries. Social security net and healthcare in Eastern Europe are awfully underfunded and are more comparable to American than to those from more developed EU countries.

We (actually you) are talking about "market rate".

The Eastern Europe "market rate" is lower than the US because cost of living is.

I assure you that people earning USD 40K in Eastern Europe have a quality of life comparable to their "market rate" paid US engineer (as people in the same thread are saying).

As quality of life improves (also helped by US companies paying above-average rates, compared to the local ones), so will wages and cost of living in general.

It's basic economics, it has nothing to do with "deserving" something.

If you expect US companies should pay US wages where the market rate is well below that, your expectations are simply not realistic.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#143

Post by HillaryBriss » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #131

Maybe they should allow people a little time to learn the exact skills needed? These days you need to have done already what you will be doing on the new job. No time for learning anything even if it would take only a few days or weeks to get up to speed. How are people actually learning new stuff? If Uber had looked for a CEO that way they would have rejected any candidate that hadn't run a fast growing ride sharing…

> How are people actually learning new stuff?

on their own time. companies want to avoid investment in people if possible.

this is probably a false economy.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#144

Post by damnfine » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

ikeyany wrote: post #123

existencebox wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done a good handful of interviews, I tend to look for "generic problem solving" (not in the sense of trick questions, but in the sense of running through ambiguous engineering and mixed social/engineering scenarios to see how they'd move forward) communication skills (the ability to communicate the above effectively, talk about past work, problems, successes) and frankly track record. (this is obviously harder…

The industry chases away all the talented people with soft skills by telling them those skills aren't "merit-based".

And vice versa, chases out many with the hard skills, because they are socially lacking. They want some weird in between that doesnt seem to exist in nature.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#145

Post by jasonlotito » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

You can partly blame the tech elites like Apple, Google, Intel, and Adobe for this. They were found to have a no poaching agreement [1]. This kept wages down, and because their wages were down, other companies benefited by not having to pay as much compared to them. They could remain competitive even with these companies.

You cannot pay "competitive" salaries and "only hire the best."

1. http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#146

Post by jasonlotito » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

alain94040 wrote: post #137

ChuckMcM wrote: post #134

I've been watching this tension grow for a while (otherwise qualified workers unwilling to work for the pay offered). I keep expecting the system to crack and boost pay, and then we'll see some more severe inflation in the US economy as a cycle of product costs go up rather than down. And yet it is stubbornly hanging in as employers try ever more intricate ways to avoid having that cost bump. It is very much a prison…

That dam has burst years ago. Facebook, then Google, significantly increased their pay to software engineers and it lifted all the salaries in the bay area. What's interesting is that this tide hasn't propagated very far outside California yet.

Are you sure? Google participated in an anti-poaching deal that would result in lower pay because of less competition. Even if they did increase pay, it could still be below what they would have paid if they had not had this policy in the first place. I'd need to see something that takes this into account before I believe it.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#147

Post by thebiglebrewski » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #32

Pay. More. Money. There, I solved it for every single one of the "struggling" employers. Money is a proxy for everything .

I would do that...for money!

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#148

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

alain94040 wrote: post #137

ChuckMcM wrote: post #134

I've been watching this tension grow for a while (otherwise qualified workers unwilling to work for the pay offered). I keep expecting the system to crack and boost pay, and then we'll see some more severe inflation in the US economy as a cycle of product costs go up rather than down. And yet it is stubbornly hanging in as employers try ever more intricate ways to avoid having that cost bump. It is very much a prison…

That dam has burst years ago. Facebook, then Google, significantly increased their pay to software engineers and it lifted all the salaries in the bay area. What's interesting is that this tide hasn't propagated very far outside California yet.

Not the tension I'm seeing. I'm seeing it in the rank and file all across the country as the article points out. Office admins, waitstaff, hospitality positions, janitorial, etc. These generally blue collar positions have had negative wage growth between 2009 and today but that has slowed or nearly stopped according to the labor statistics put out by Bureau of Labor Statistics[1].

As an example, at some point the customer complaints about room cleanliness will force hotel chains to increase their wages offered to fill positions that have gone unfilled for too long. That change will be reflected in higher hotel rates. Restaurants that can't keep all their tables open during 'peak' times will have to raise prices to add staff Etc.

It isn't a 'big deal' for Facebook or Google to raise wages because it just slows the free cash flow into their bank accounts. But it is a big deal for business models where personnel costs are a material factor in the company's operating margin.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/realer.pdf

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#149

Post by stevenwoo » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

surfmike wrote: post #10

qudat wrote: post #3

In my mind this is screaming for apprenticeship programs like in Germany.[1][2] Companies need a more streamlined process to get employers early in their career so employees have the necessary training and then get promoted within. All the while employees get paid to learn and work. This one-size-fits-all 4-year college track that every U.S. citizen is being pushed through is failing miserably. [1] https://www.theatl…

Even for people who go to college, more work experience is a huge plus. Waterloo's coop system (4 months of school, 4 months of internship, repeated) provides a great mix of practical experience and academics. It would be great if all majors could have an experience like that.

I graduated from college 30 years ago and every engineering major at every state university I ever heard of had a coop program.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#150

Post by dabockster » Fri, Sep 01, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

jdhn wrote: post #22

"They're just asking for the moon, and not expecting to pay very much for it," Cappelli says. "And as a result they [can't] find those people. Now that [doesn't] mean there was nobody to do the job; it just [means] that there was nobody at the price they were willing to pay." In my opinion, this is the key paragraph in the article. I see this all the time when recruiters send me job postings, and they want someone wi…

And also

"we still don't see lots of employers being willing to take people in right out of school and train them for jobs"

As a person that's only one year out of school with debts, I couldn't afford to be doing side projects when I was using all my free time to make sure I didn't miss a bill.