Live data from Hacker News

Tesla Model S battery degradation data

steinbuch.wordpress.com

151–160 of 257 posts

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly it might be a bit confusing to Canadians, here we use the U.S. numeric conventions, but we tend to use a mix of SI and imperial units, and in this case we'd use kilometres for ground distance, with thousands separated by commas. The UK also seems to prefer commas to separate thousands. I'm inoculated against confusion about this because I've done a lot of software and content localization, and have a grasp on…

I'm always surprised that en_CA and fr_CA are so different. We use spaces as separator and comma for the decimal. Also we use the 24h format while the ROC uses 12h. We do use 12h colloquially though. Dates are officially y-M-d but most people use d/M/y. It's funny how in Canada we have some specific remnants of the imperial system. Most people under 50 have no idea what a Fahrenheit is (myself included), except for p…

Dates are a complete mess, yeah. I've seen absolutely every single convention used in Canadian government and business documents. I personally use ISO 8601 wherever it's an option (contracts, personal documents, casual communications) because of how ridiculous all of the other options are.

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#152
post #88

Average life of ICE vehicles can't be 266kkm, that's absurdly low. Most of people I know have bought vehicles with that mileage and used it for another 100kkm after that at some point in their life (think first/second car, second family car, etc.). It's important to know that especially in Central/Eastern Europe, you can never trust the car's odometer - even the cars I'm talking about had probably more than 350kkm wh…

It is more about when the car is costing you enough per year to fix that paying for a new one would be cheaper overall. Also perceived safety/ convenience, a car might be good for another 100k km but appear unreliable enough that it might break down at any time.

My sister spent $2000 on a Daewoo sedan like 6 years back, it needed constant repairs and didn’t have working climate control - the thing only had like 80K miles on it. Total waste of money, but she kept fixing it up and wasted thousands of dollars before eventually junking it.

Meanwhile, the 2006 Prius I bought two years ago just hit 110K miles (purchased with 80K miles), cost $10K, and has needed nothing more than new tires and a replacement cooling block on the engine (which was deferred by the previous owner). I plan on running this thing until they no longer can service it, a full swap of the hybrid transaxle is relatively cheap as is replacing the engine, but with regular maintenance they’ll probably last 500K or more and I’ll only have to replace the battery at some point.

Always do research on the reliability and cost of repairs on a car before you buy it, this alone was why I picked the Prius over other cars on the lot (there’s very little that can need serious repairs because of how simple the ICE design is, and the electric drivetrain components are pretty long lived as well).

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#153

This is pretty surprising. What it means is that most owners will not need to replace their batteries in the time that they own the car. In my 'total cost of ownership' models, I've assumed a battery replacement at 100,000 miles, but that appears to not be necessary. This changes the calculation considerably. Not to mention that if the drive train can go 400,000 miles without needing major repair, I can keep the car…

Musk has made a comment on an investor call that they're targeting a million mile lifespan for the motor.

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#154

FYI: Tesla batteries are literally laptop batteries with cell balancing. No secret battery magic going on. You could in theory crack open the pack and replace inefficient cells to get your capacity back. But, I'm assuming this is too huge a PITA for most people.

I thought laptop batteries are also a bunch of phone batteries stuck together. Is that assumption incorrect? Edit: apparently so.... I would appreciate a reply if anyone has time. I have a difficult time figuring out what about my question could have caused disagreement.

Phone batteries are more commonly lithium polymer, and laptop batteries are more commonly lithium ion (using 18650 cells).

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#155
post #10

Average life of ICE vehicles can't be 266kkm, that's absurdly low. Most of people I know have bought vehicles with that mileage and used it for another 100kkm after that at some point in their life (think first/second car, second family car, etc.). It's important to know that especially in Central/Eastern Europe, you can never trust the car's odometer - even the cars I'm talking about had probably more than 350kkm wh…

I have seen plenty of cars not make to 165_000 miles, those that do are often near the end of their life. Mine is beat and barely holding together and it is at 97_000 miles.

> Mine is beat and barely holding together and it is at 97_000 miles.

You are ridiculously hard on your capital equipment. It must be nice not to have a care in the world for your expensive possessions. Personally I couldn't bring myself to torture fine machinery like that.

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#156
post #58

FYI: Tesla batteries are literally laptop batteries with cell balancing. No secret battery magic going on. You could in theory crack open the pack and replace inefficient cells to get your capacity back. But, I'm assuming this is too huge a PITA for most people.

> No secret battery magic going on. They have a complex cooling system. Your laptop battery definitely doesn't have that. If it did, it wouldn't need to be replaced every few years.

Most people need to replace their technology about as often as their batteries, so there is no incentive to cool them.

But the reasons they need to be replaced often is more about 1. Not keeping them at/above 40% charge, and 2. Laptop batteries don't balance the cells. Most laptop batteries can get 80% capacity back just by replacing one or two crap cells.

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do like the nerdiness in the idea of saying "two megs" instead of "two thousand kays" But they are not the same!!oneoneone. Unless you are in the dog food prefixes camp. Are you?

2 000 km = 2 Mm? You're not thinking of the mebi-, kibi-, etc debacle, are you?

Yes. I'm old school, 1K is 1024, 1M is 1024K, 64K is 65536 and I refuse to use kimblebits and such.

Ah... screw it: https://www.xkcd.com/394/

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#158
post #9

This is fundamentally flawed because lithium batteries mostly degrade not because of amount of use, but because of time (and their charge state and temperature during this time). No matter if used or not, they will lose capacity. The rate of capacity loss is mainly dependent of average charge (best is 40%, worst is 100%) and temperature (best is 5 degrees C, the higher the worse). (This is also why phone batteries fa…

I've recently had to become pretty familiar with this subject for work, and your comment is only partially correct.

Li-Ion battery degradation is generally modeled as two (roughly additive) components, called calendar and cycle aging. Calendar aging is what you're talking about in your comment - it's basically determined by the temperature and state of charge. Both of these impact the rate of chemical processes that lead to loss of lithium and active material. This is what happens when the battery is sitting on the shelf.

Cycle aging, on the other hand, happens when you charge or discharge the battery and is driven mostly by the actual volume change in the anode and cathode when they get lithiated (it's quite significant, up to 15% or so in some materials). This introduces mechanical stress, which can break the protective film that forms between the electrodes and electrolyte and allow chemical degradation to proceed at a faster rate. The degree of mechanical stress is mostly determined by the depth of discharge, although rate of charge and discharge is also believed to be important. Cycle degradation is also impacted by the temperature at which the battery is cycled, in a similar way to calendar aging.

With high temperature variance (low temperatures will wreck your batteries too, and I can't recommend keeping them at 5C), calendar aging is the dominant mode. This is absolutely the case with cell phone batteries. However, electric vehicles, especially higher end ones like the Tesla, have an active cooling system that keeps the battery at a constant temperature, even when the car is "off". This is why many EVB warranties will be voided if you let them run out of charge for more than 14 days - at that point, the cooling system isn't working and your poor battery is at the mercy of the elements.

Under closely controlled temperatures, cycle aging is the most important factor, and it's dominated by depth of discharge. If you drain the battery as far as it will allow you every day, it's going to be hosed. If you only go down to about 80% of the allowed charge every other day, it'll last for quite a while. These numbers are roughly correlated, obviously, with the mileage on the car, but the relationship is not simple, and I'd caution against considering mileage to be a good determinant of battery degradation.

Some good sources if you want to learn more:

A fairly simple model of degradation (ignores charge/discharge rate): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303890624_Modeling_...

A thesis on the subject, goes into great detail and has an excellent bibliography: http://webfiles.portal.chalmers.se/et/Lic/JensGroot.pdf

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#159
post #155
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen plenty of cars not make to 165_000 miles, those that do are often near the end of their life. Mine is beat and barely holding together and it is at 97_000 miles.

> Mine is beat and barely holding together and it is at 97_000 miles. You are ridiculously hard on your capital equipment. It must be nice not to have a care in the world for your expensive possessions. Personally I couldn't bring myself to torture fine machinery like that.

Lots of assumptions in this comment.

Re: Tesla Model S battery degradation data

#160
post #102

That's quite impressive. What I am wondering is why they do do well, barely losing 10% in 5 years, compared to phone or laptop batteries that last maybe 3 years on average. AFAIK, they use the same technology, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the same batch of cells end up partly in Teslas and partly in laptops.

In order of importance: 1: Tesla cells are hard limited to a lower voltage, reportedly 4.1 V rather than the 4.2-4.4 V maximum. Phone batteries run much closer to their maximum voltage 2: Tesla cells stay at much lower temperatures and have active cooling. Phone batteries are used to sink heat from the processors and wifi. 3: Teslas have a much lower normal depth of discharge. In addition to the derated voltage, the…

Thermal regulation is the most important difference, followed by low depth of discharge.

There are also some (rather weak) reports that if you take the individual 18650 cells out of a tesla battery they last significantly longer than the NCA 18650s you can actually buy from Panasonic, which indicates that they might made to better manufacturing tolerances or something, but it's really all about Tesla's treating the batteries much better during use.

Post reply on HN