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Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

latimes.com

101–110 of 242 posts

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#101
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some estimates show that to cover the generous incentives Wisconsin will most likely need to pay Foxconn cash from the treasury for the foreseeable future: http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/07/28/foxco... The "local jobs" argument is eroded further for Wisconsin when you consider that the proposed sites are all well within commute range for a large population of Illinois residents - something that didn…

Nowhere in that article does it state how they’ll just get checks. Maybe I’m not understanding tax credits because that article says the same thing, they will get up to 200 million a year in tax credits. If you have no tax, you get no credit. Better than a deduction, but not writing a check. Anything past that is all “some estimates” which really are just people making things up. Also, people commute, you can’t stop…

The article states:

"... because Wisconsin already waives almost all taxes on manufacturing profits in the state, these incentives represent not a lost opportunity at collecting revenue but an obligation to pay cash to Foxconn out of the state treasury for up to 15 years."

Put another way:

http://fortune.com/2017/07/31/foxconn-wisconsin-plant-tax-br...

"Although the state measures to attract Foxconn are labeled tax incentives, they largely would be paid in cash since the effective Wisconsin state tax rate is 0.4% on manufacturers."

Of course people commute (and they should)! However, for a state negotiating an incentive package they should have been aware of this basic fact, especially given the extremely close proximity to another state that (amazingly) isn't contributing to the incentive package.

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#102
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hits home as a Wisconsin resident. Best case scenario, we're looking at 2042 to turn a profit[1]. [1] http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/misc/lfb/bill_summaries/2017...

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it's not an actual loss at any point is it? The refundable tax credits just pay back what the state collected, which isn't really a "loss".

It's a combination of cash payments and tax exemptions.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/16/how-w...

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#103
Iowa is a very short sighted state.

On one hand they're trying to be this tech savvy state by bringing in Apple and Google data centers, on the other hand getting decent broad band is terrible in all the rural parts of the state.

So they did what any conservative state would do and relied upon the free market to get them high speed bandwidth. And that's not been real successful. So they had to subsidize it.

From this article in 2015 [1]:

"Four communications providers have received more than $53 million in federal funds to expand high-speed Internet service to nearly 90,000 rural Iowa homes and businesses."

That's roughly 3% of the population.

Okay, so one might say that's just the cost of doing business. The thing is that Iowa already has a $200 million dollar fiber optic network that connects all 99 counties with over 8000 miles of fiber called the Iowa Communications Network. So why don't they use that to extend broad band to rural areas?

From the Iowa Communications Network home page [2]:

"The ICN provides high-speed flexible broadband Internet, data, video conferencing, and voice (phone) services to authorized users, under Code of Iowa, which includes: K-12 schools, higher education, hospitals and clinics, state and federal government, National Guard armories, and libraries"

That's awesome if you're an authorized user. But the sad part is there is more than just those users that could use broadband, and it seems like Iowa decided to leave them out in the cold.

[1] http://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/business/rural-iowa-g...

[2] http://icn.iowa.gov

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#104
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are supposed to pay taxes so we can have schools, healthcare, basic income etc. When they bid countries or states against each other to get tax breaks and governments play the game, citizens lose. Yes, it happens in other cases too, and citizens should also protest against those other cases.

A corporation is purely a legal notion. In real life, when you shake down a corporation so that "we" can have nice stuff, you are shaking down that corporation's shareholders, employees, and customers. These folks already paid their fair share of income and sales taxes. And they can also be referred to using a first-person pronoun.

> These folks already paid their fair share of income and sales taxes

That would only matter had they chosen not to incorporate, once they do (or buy into it), then they should accept the rules, warts and all. As you said, a corporation is a purely legal notion with upsides (limited liability) and downsides (pay the bloody taxes, c'mon)

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#105
post #12
post #6

> We were highly skeptical of this deal when it was announced Aug. 24. In the fullness of time, we’ve subjected it to closer scrutiny. And now it looks even worse. Oh great, so you carefully gathered data and put it into some sort of spreadsheet or something? Where's the spreadsheet? Where's the decision tree that shows this is a bad deal for Iowa? Oh, you don't have any of that actual diligence? You started with a c…

> You started with a conclusion and then wrote a bunch of B.S. with cherry picking and misleading statements throughout? This is why I flagged it. Can you expand on this and point to some of the misleading statements and why you think they're misleading?

Start at the very beginning:

"State and local officials in Iowa have been working hard to rationalize their handout of more than $208 million in tax benefits to Apple"

That sentenced is aimed to make it sound like the state is giving $208 million to Apple. That is false. If Apple is going to pay $300M in taxes to Iowa, then the state is getting $100M by having Apple come, and $0 if Apple goes to another state.

"These corporate handouts might make sense if they spurred economic growth. They don’t."

First, that sounds overly confident. And then to support it the author cites two cherry-picked articles.

"Unless that expansion occurs...Apple is guaranteed to contribute only one-fifth as much as people were led to believe."

Okay, where's your spreadsheet modeling the probability of the expansion occurring? Because if it's 80% likelihood, then the $100M figure is accurate.

I don't say I disagree with the author's main claim that the system is flawed in that we have lots of government entities having to negotiate individually with bigger companies (I'd prefer a simpler tax system across the board in general), I'm just saying in this particular case the author has provided no detailed numerical justification why he is right, which leads me to believe he is in fact, likely wrong.

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#106
post #66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just countering the idea that there is no cost to the state.

It's only a cost if the expenses are larger than the revenue...

You're missing my point. Painting a $20M donation as pure profit is misleading if it ends up costing 99% of that to get the donation. Yes, in absolute terms, there was a net benefit, but in your own words: don't pretend you don't understand the difference.

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#107
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are supposed to pay taxes so we can have schools, healthcare, basic income etc. When they bid countries or states against each other to get tax breaks and governments play the game, citizens lose. Yes, it happens in other cases too, and citizens should also protest against those other cases.

There is nothing wrong with states competing with each other. If one state has poor schools then companies won't want to be there because they won't be able to find competent employees. If one state has no government healthcare subsidies then employees there will demand higher wages so they can pay for healthcare. The states that have better schools and more subsidies will have correspondingly higher taxes. The only…

A large corporation like Apple getting a tax cut allows Apple to pay the relocation costs of engineers and other employees. Those sames engineers are putting off children to later or not having them at all. A group that also switches jobs frequently.

So long as Apple has some trendy locations people will be happy to work there and the schools won't even be a consideration for most.

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#108
post #17

Just for all the inevitable comments about "the government should have just given X people Y dollars instead..." Iowa isn't "giving money." It does not have the additional revenue before Apple arrives, thus, it can't give anyone those revenues. All it can do is tell Apple you have to give us, Iowa, less than the state next door... now whether this is a good economic plan I disagree. I'd rather have a thousand small b…

> Iowa isn't "giving money." It does not have the additional revenue before Apple arrives, thus, it can't give anyone those revenues.

That's incorrect.

The question is does the apple datacenter consume more of the state's resources in dollars than the state gets back in taxes? Services provided by the state and county include regulatory, legal, educational, emergency and safety, transportation, etc.

Then there's the cost of the environment, e.g. do they cause an increase in pollution due to their increased use of electricity?

So while I would say that it's unlikely they would cost more than the taxes they would pay, it's not guaranteed either. So yes, they could in fact be "giving money" away.

Re: Iowa's handout to Apple illustrates the folly of corporate welfare deals

#110

Maybe they're working on the "your first one is free" hook. The 50 jobs at the data center will attract a McDonalds across the street and then Waukee can hit those McGuys with a Burger Tax. Let's see. $208M at 5 cents per burger is only, uh, ... Well, the company slogan is "Billions and Billions Served."

Billions and Billions Served >= 4,000,000,000 Served
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