Internet access is now a basic human right (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#21

Post by Klockan » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

gipp wrote: post #10

ygra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should those people work for free so that a poor persons rights are not violated? Just because something is a human right, doesn't mean society (or whoever else) has to provide that for free.

The point is that _rights_ ought to be things that, in the absence of a society, you already _have_. (Life, liberty, right to property, etc) They are things that a just society is obligated to not take _away_ from you. Things that a just and wealthy society should be able to provide _for_ its citizens (health care, economic security, etc), are laudable and highly important goals. They are not rights though -- not bec…

United Nations disagrees with you, look at article 26 for example:

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#22

Post by sol_remmy » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #18

bischofs wrote: post #2

I don't think internet access is a human right, a simple test is if the internet goes down are my rights being violated? Can you really put this in the same category as the right to pursue happiness or health? or the right to defend yourself? Classifying everything as a right is super fun and feels important but it actually takes away from the actual human rights. Health care is another example - do you have the righ…

Food or shelter are not produced for free either, and they are still widely accepted human rights. Of course it's clear that one cannot just go and label arbitrarily expensive things as human rights, but of course guaranteeing human rights can take a nontrivial amount of work. This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for…

> This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work.

What about in a country in crisis like Venezuela with no money to afford human rights?

In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers?

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#23

Post by mizchief2 » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

According to idiots who don't know that rights are.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#24

Post by ameister14 » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

gipp wrote: post #10

ygra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should those people work for free so that a poor persons rights are not violated? Just because something is a human right, doesn't mean society (or whoever else) has to provide that for free.

The point is that _rights_ ought to be things that, in the absence of a society, you already _have_. (Life, liberty, right to property, etc) They are things that a just society is obligated to not take _away_ from you. Things that a just and wealthy society should be able to provide _for_ its citizens (health care, economic security, etc), are laudable and highly important goals. They are not rights though -- not bec…

I'd make it a bit more specific - human rights are things that you have in the absence of society, as they are universally applicable, but they don't encompass all rights. A citizen can have a right to something provided by their society.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#25

Post by pyroinferno » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

Absolutely stupid, should we be holding the governments of poor countries who can't afford to host infrastructure in contempt?

A human right should be a right that could be held throughout any time in any place. If the internet is a human right, were people 1000 years ago being denied of this human right? The overuse of the term "human right" will only devalue the meaning of "human right".

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#26

Post by gipp » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #19

gipp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that _rights_ ought to be things that, in the absence of a society, you already _have_. (Life, liberty, right to property, etc) They are things that a just society is obligated to not take _away_ from you. Things that a just and wealthy society should be able to provide _for_ its citizens (health care, economic security, etc), are laudable and highly important goals. They are not rights though -- not bec…

Your comment flies in the face of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which certainly features medical care and education.

Which, in turn, flies in the face of the original, Lockeian definition of "natural rights".

I'm not saying this article is alone in diluting the meaning of a "right", it's been going on for years all around the world. That dilution, though, has made it basically useless as a concept.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#27

Post by icebraining » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #22

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food or shelter are not produced for free either, and they are still widely accepted human rights. Of course it's clear that one cannot just go and label arbitrarily expensive things as human rights, but of course guaranteeing human rights can take a nontrivial amount of work. This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for…

> This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work. What about in a country in crisis like Venezuela with no money to afford human rights? In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers?

In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers?

Yes, as they have always done. It's called paying taxes.

In my country, the media even underlines that every year by calculating how many days the average worker does "for free" (ie, to pay the various taxes), and on that day, counting from January 1st, they announce it on TV and such.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#28

Post by gipp » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

Klockan wrote: post #21

gipp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that _rights_ ought to be things that, in the absence of a society, you already _have_. (Life, liberty, right to property, etc) They are things that a just society is obligated to not take _away_ from you. Things that a just and wealthy society should be able to provide _for_ its citizens (health care, economic security, etc), are laudable and highly important goals. They are not rights though -- not bec…

United Nations disagrees with you, look at article 26 for example: Article 26. (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

As with your sibling comment:

> I'm not saying this article is alone in diluting the meaning of a "right", it's been going on for years all around the world. That dilution, though, has made it basically useless as a concept.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#29

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

Making internet access a human right doesn't necessarily mean that someone has to pay for every home to have a computer and a connection.

You can give free internet access to everyone by e.g. setting up computers with access in public libraries. That can be done in practically any society, except those so impoverished that they already fail to guarantee other human rights in the first place. So I don't think the idea of making Internet access a human right is as far-fetched as some comments here are making it sound.

Re: Internet access is now a basic human right (2016)

#30

Post by sol_remmy » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

When does the UN get off its high horse? It requires governments to meet this new expensive human right but does it provide funding - of course not!

If the United Nations decides [x] is a human right, than what are the consequences to civil servants for not providing that human right? Are they labeled human rights abusers?

Is a judge a human right abuser if he takes away internet access from a sex offender?