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Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

theintercept.com

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Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#11

Post by emodendroket »

ackfoo wrote: post #2

Harvey was a hurricane. It could have occurred anywhere on the Gulf Coast. There is no direct relationship between climate change and any particular named storm. To argue otherwise is to destroy one's credibility. The problems that exacerbated the disaster of Harvey are indeed linked to climate change, but not in the simple-minded way that Naomi Klein makes out. The economic factors that lead to high-density construc…

I completely disagree with this perspective. If I did the most carbon-neutral thing and jumped off a building tomorrow it still would not make a difference. And it has really grown wearisome to read "this is why Trump won!!" in response to literally any other perspective or action.

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#12

Post by emodendroket »

Also worth talking about and springing from similar causes: wetland reduction has made the region more vulnerable to floods, as this local article highlighted a year ago. http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/a...

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#13

Post by danharaj »

honestoHeminway wrote: post #8
danharaj wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No true market.

If its bad, it never is.

A market is a market, whether it's distorted or regulated or monopolized or captured or unhealthy. The fact that markets can behave poorly because they are embedded in the wider world is absolutely intrinsic to the concept of a market.

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#14

Post by chiph »

Climate change is the most likely reason behind rising sea levels, however, Houston is far enough inland to not have gotten any storm surge. What happened was the storm stalled over top of the city instead of moving on through. This meant that it picked up water on the south-east side of the storm and dropped it on the north-west side, right over the neighborhoods. And did it over a couple of days.

What it was .. was a severe rainfall event.

And the photo she led with, with the people walking along the highway divider? Houston's road network is designed to be a last-resort flood buffer to collect rainwater temporarily until it can drain to the east into the ship canal. So yeah, that's going to happen.

The good news is the $700+ million in FEMA money that was spent over the years since Katrina to prevent flooding at the city's medical centers appears to have worked. They stayed open.

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#15

Post by emodendroket »

danharaj wrote: post #13
honestoHeminway wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its bad, it never is.

A market is a market, whether it's distorted or regulated or monopolized or captured or unhealthy. The fact that markets can behave poorly because they are embedded in the wider world is absolutely intrinsic to the concept of a market.

Yeah, I think it is a mistake to try and think about the market and the political environment as two separate spheres rather than deeply linked entities constantly influencing each other. There is no such thing as "free market" without a government creating the conditions for one, whether that means subsidizing flood insurance or creating a navy to force other countries to go along with free trade (a development largely coinciding with the rise of laissez-faire theory).

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#16

Post by [deleted] »

ackfoo wrote: post #2

Harvey was a hurricane. It could have occurred anywhere on the Gulf Coast. There is no direct relationship between climate change and any particular named storm. To argue otherwise is to destroy one's credibility. The problems that exacerbated the disaster of Harvey are indeed linked to climate change, but not in the simple-minded way that Naomi Klein makes out. The economic factors that lead to high-density construc…

[deleted]

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#17

Post by emodendroket »

chiph wrote: post #14

Climate change is the most likely reason behind rising sea levels, however, Houston is far enough inland to not have gotten any storm surge. What happened was the storm stalled over top of the city instead of moving on through. This meant that it picked up water on the south-east side of the storm and dropped it on the north-west side, right over the neighborhoods. And did it over a couple of days. What it was .. was…

It was my understanding that climate change made events like hurricanes and extreme rainfall more likely.

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#18

Post by diego_moita »

There are a lot of things more crucial than climate change. There are towns with no building and zoning regulations, bad infrastructure for water drainage and few resources for tragedy prevention.

Low taxes and deregulation are very nice in the short run. But then comes what statisticians call black swans and you understand why you needed them. New Orleans and Houston are Gulf Coast cities, they should expect hurricanes and should build accordingly. Just as much as California builds expecting earthquakes.

France and Germany have a much bigger population density and lots of floods but a lot less fatalities. Maybe they know something about how to build cities.

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#19

Post by bmmayer1 »

Two things to note here:

- Naomi Klein is a well-known leftist activist and author with a clear agenda. Take what she writes with a grain of salt.

- Yes, it's important to think about climate change and how it may impact weather patterns. But no serious climate scientist would ever credit singular weather events to global climate trends, which take decades to evolve. It's lazy to use a hurricane to bolster climate change arguments for the same reason it's lazy to use a blizzard to bolster climate change skeptics.

Re: Harvey Didn't Come Out of the Blue. Now Is the Time to Talk about Climate Change

#20

Post by cpr »

emodendroket wrote: post #17
chiph wrote: post #14

Climate change is the most likely reason behind rising sea levels, however, Houston is far enough inland to not have gotten any storm surge. What happened was the storm stalled over top of the city instead of moving on through. This meant that it picked up water on the south-east side of the storm and dropped it on the north-west side, right over the neighborhoods. And did it over a couple of days. What it was .. was…

It was my understanding that climate change made events like hurricanes and extreme rainfall more likely.

Except that the US has had 10 years free of serious storms. Doesn't quite fit the narrative.
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