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Can we know what animals are thinking?

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Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#231
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plants are living organisms. Before we go into any kind of debate that presupposes that plants are "creatures", "sentient" or "feel" anything, you are going to have to provide a whole lot of explaining, backed by the same amount of citations.

What would a discussion he without citations. Quote from below "plants are just very slow animals" "plants can see hear and respond" http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-... Provided this is true don't they deserve more protection over animals because they can't defend as well as animals

Of course plants exchange signals with their environment. And of course they are alive. Of course they behave with purpose (they do things which further their cause of reproducing, as is expected of evolved organisms).

This doesn't imply at all that they are sentient or have feelings, which is what we care about (or should, in any case) when we discuss harming or protecting other living things.

Of course, there are other considerations such as ecological, but that's not what we're discussing here.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#232
post #42

While the particularities may be interesting, much of what's said isn't surprising (though for Cartesians, it may be, and the author does throw Descartes' name around a few times). There is a great deal of confusion about this subject and a number of philosophical errors in the comments (w.r.t. language, religion, qualia, zombies, etc). For those who do want some perspective, I recommend starting with Feser's introdu…

> ... a number of philosophical errors in the comments (w.r.t. language, religion, qualia, zombies, etc). I feel like this is, intentionally or not, aimed at least 80% at my comments :) Would you mind giving me some quick pointers on what the "errors" are? I can assure you that, though I may well be wrong, I have read several books on philosophy of mind and many more on cognitive science research. Despite that I'm st…

I wasn't intentionally aiming at your comments, but some of what I wrote does seem to concern, at least loosely, some of the things you've written. As you can imagine, philosophical issues usually can't be resolved in a comment section, hence the links to material that addresses a couple of these issues. But for starters, the problem of qualia is neither here nor there. I will note that the problem is rooted in a Cartesian metaphysical tradition that persists even among materialists, though they are in an even worse place than their dualist counterparts. Whereas Cartesian dualists could at least defer to the res cogitans as the "substrate" in which qualia exist, materialists--having dropped the res cogitans while maintaining a more or less Cartesian res extensa--cannot hope to account for qualia because the res extensa, by definition, precludes qualia. The only recourse is to reexamine those broadly Cartesian metaphysical presuppositions, something few materialists seem to be doing. Putting aside the cryptodualisms of some of the more sophisticated materialists, perhaps one of the more annoying things you'll see is the invocation of "emergence" as a magical cure-all to any of the problems facing materialism.

Another issue is what seems to be the claim that when accounting for consciousness, you've either got religion or a (reductionist) materialism. Nonsense. Aristotelians have always held that animals are both composed of matter[0] and conscious. One area Aristotelians and materialists differ is their concept of matter. The materialist's concept of matter is the reason why Descartes denied non-human animals consciousness. He understood that without the res cogitans--which he denied non-human animals--the impoverished res extensa he presupposed could not "support" consciousness. Aristotelianism avoids the problem without having to take refuge in substance dualism.

[0] The exception is man. While most faculties of human beings are understood to be material, the exception is the intellect. Why? Because the intellect engages in abstraction. If matter is concrete and particular ("this red apple"), and universals existing apart from particulars are abstract ("redness"), then the intellect, in which they reside, cannot be material. Compare this with the imagination which always deals with images and thus particulars.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#233

While the particularities may be interesting, much of what's said isn't surprising (though for Cartesians, it may be, and the author does throw Descartes' name around a few times). There is a great deal of confusion about this subject and a number of philosophical errors in the comments (w.r.t. language, religion, qualia, zombies, etc). For those who do want some perspective, I recommend starting with Feser's introdu…

Boy there is a lot in Feser’s work to unpack. I haven’t gotten through all of the links you posted yet, but the crux of his argument (and evidently the argument Thomists make) is that humans are different because we are capable of abstract reasoning and logic whereas animals are not. Do you suppose animals really are not capable of these two mental faculties? Abstraction seems more difficult to dissect but it does no…

I don't have an fully thought out position, but I will say that without abstraction, you couldn't talk about logic or reasoning as these deal in abstract concepts.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#234
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is unpleasant existence always better than nonexistence? Put another way, would you make the same argument if the creatures in question were people?

Might it be moral to destroy all life on Earth, thus ending all pain?

This is always what I assumed a genie would do if you wished for world peace.
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