Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#571

Post by peripitea » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 1:53 AM UTC

spdionis wrote: post #313

dreta wrote: post #69

An interesting read. Though, for me, VC in general is not the kind of job that favors people who are nice. When people are rude to you, or try to use you, there's a multitude of ways you can interpret that. For Ellen, it's sexism. What baffled me was that in the opening paragraphs she felt the need to point out that the powerful men were white. For me, it set the tone for the whole article, and painted a clear pictur…

> What baffled me was that in the opening paragraphs she felt the need to point out that the powerful men were white. Exactly my thought. The moment I read that word I stopped being neutral towards the article and started considering it as "shit talking". If you're writing about sexism there is really no reason to point out the men involved were white. It sounds like "Look at those privileged nasty men!!! And they ha…

Sexual harassment and power structures are intertwined. That's part of what this whole story is about. If they weren't so powerful, it would be much harder for them to get away with this, and they would probably be less likely to do it in the first place.

Their whiteness is a part of their power. It's not the only, and maybe not even the primary reason for their power, but it's certainly relevant.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#572

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 2:05 AM UTC

sushid wrote: post #567

nitrogen wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear that I've been misunderstood, and I'm not sure how to rectify the misunderstanding. This makes it difficult to have actual discussions about this topic that don't devolve into bandwagon parades. If we had always followed the "don't say it" default, then it would still be considered offensive to advocate for LGBT or religious or gender rights in the workplace. This is what I meant by taboos being sometimes…

> If we had always followed the "don't say it" default, then it would still be considered offensive to advocate for LGBT or religious or gender rights in the workplace. This is what I meant by taboos being sometimes harmful. Again, you're equating social progress with the ability to say controversial things at work. I would argue that most of the progress LGBT/religious/etc. groups have made have been made outside of…

I'm not equating anything with anything. I'm saying there's no such thing as a realistic hard-line stance, and pretending there is makes things worse, not better.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#573

Post by dang » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 6:23 AM UTC

0xbear wrote: post #442

sdenton4 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a piece in response to the damore memo, written up by an evolutionary biologist. https://medium.com/@tweetingmouse/the-truth-has-got-its-boot... It spends a while at the beginning on credentials and the importance of using citations (something damore failed at), and starts getting into the science at 'universal across all cultures, are we sure?'

Damore didn't fail at providing citations. You did apparently fail at reading the original document, however. References were deliberately stripped out by Gizmodo, and then republished by everyone else.

> You did apparently fail at reading

Uncivil swipes will get your account banned on HN, so please don't post like this again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#574

Post by dang » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 6:28 AM UTC

interstitial wrote: post #302

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

Stop posting evidence, you can see by your downvotes, that when HN asks for "substantive" comments it surely doesn't mean evidence-based.

Since we asked you to stop using HN for ideological battle and you've continued to do so, we've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#575

Post by abritinthebay » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 3:04 PM UTC

tomxor wrote: post #557

abritinthebay wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it was also clear that this view is unsupported and irrelevant to the point of the story.

> Yes, but it was also clear that this view is unsupported and irrelevant to the point of the story. Why is it irrelevant? I think it's entirely relevant, Pao showed she was pretty deceitful in her suit... how is such an individuals personal case of discrimination not tainted by that?

> Pao showed she was pretty deceitful in her suit

In your opinion (and also rather unsupported). She just failed to prove her allegations to the courts standard.

The company’s smear campaign against (a proven thing) shows her opponents in that case as far more deceitful tbh

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#576

Post by tomxor » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

abritinthebay wrote: post #575

tomxor wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, but it was also clear that this view is unsupported and irrelevant to the point of the story. Why is it irrelevant? I think it's entirely relevant, Pao showed she was pretty deceitful in her suit... how is such an individuals personal case of discrimination not tainted by that?

> Pao showed she was pretty deceitful in her suit In your opinion (and also rather unsupported). She just failed to prove her allegations to the courts standard. The company’s smear campaign against (a proven thing) shows her opponents in that case as far more deceitful tbh

Pfft yeah I can just swing "In your opinion (and also rather unsupported)" around too... Pao is as deceitful as her employer, they are a perfect match.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#577

Post by ralusek » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 3:09 AM UTC

morgtheborg wrote: post #458

ralusek wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that a lot of engineers get very annoyed when the topic of "sexism in Silicon Valley" is brought up, because anybody who is in a hiring position for specifically engineering knows exactly how utilitarian the hiring process is. For positions and treatment of individuals working in venture capital, however, I don't imagine very many engineers would have much to weigh in on. So what I'm getting at is that I'…

> My point is that a lot of engineers get very annoyed when the topic of "sexism in Silicon Valley" is brought up, because anybody who is in a hiring position for specifically engineering knows exactly how utilitarian the hiring process is. To me, that shows a stunning lack of personal awareness. I've done hiring in tech. I'm an engineer. I'm also a woman. And I know I'm biased against certain groups. I purposefully…

Your example of how you offset your bias is by establishing an objective metric via a coding exercise. That is literally the most common practice...

I have a series of technical questions that I ask a candidate specifically meant to isolate important technical abilities. Each of my questions almost obviously highlights one particular problem-solving ability that I expect from a quality engineer, and each question's answer is evaluated to ensure that that one specific criteria being met.

The objectivity by which I evaluate this is subject, from your perspective, because I've alerted you that I'm a white male. However, you know literally nothing about me, the questions I ask, or my primary motive when seeking an employee. I am the director of engineering at my company, and it would be extremely detrimental to my own team if I were to pass up a quality candidate of any race or gender who fits my specific (and purely technical) criteria for a hire.

Your response instead says that I demonstrate a stunning lack of personal awareness, even though not only do you not know anything about me, but I am actively engaging in a conversation about the topic for which I've clearly reflected heavily on. If you want to be less subjective (and quite frankly, racist and sexist) in your own evaluation of an individual you don't know, I suggest that you not make so many assumptions about a person upon discovering that they are a white male.