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24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

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Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#61
post #30

Perhaps this is a silly question but the explanations mostly make perfect sense to me but in the case of sample rate, what happens when two waves with very different frequencies overlap? Say I've got an 18kHz wave and a 9kHz wave and the 9kHz wave is ever so slightly out of phase. Then imagine there are 10 different waves under 20kHz all interfering with each other in different wages. Is it still possible to reproduc…

IIRC, I think the article's point about maximum volume was about how you'd need to turn the volume up to deafening levels before the small differences would be noticeable.

It doesn't seem to say anything like that. Looking at it again, I see this:

> It is also worth mentioning that increasing the bit depth of the audio representation from 16 to 24 bits does not increase the perceptible resolution or 'fineness' of the audio. It only increases the dynamic range, the range between the softest possible and the loudest possible sound, by lowering the noise floor. However, a 16-bit noise floor is already below what we can hear.

But I don't understand, why is this? Is the step in volume between two values fixed regardless of the bit depth? If so, why?

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#62
post #55
post #38

This article makes the same mistake that is done frequently with video. So, let’s look at a similar issue with video. Your display is likely only 720p, or 1080p, but a 4K video on youtube will still look a lot better, although technically it should have no visible difference. But the reality is, we don’t get uncompressed video, or uncompressed audio. We have a choice between audio or video compressed with lossy codec…

The article was arguing about 24bit/192kHz digital audio, not about what codecs do or don't do with it. If you need 24bit/192kHz with both inaudible frequencies and inaudible dynamic steps to make 16bit/48kHz music sound better at the same bitrate, then the parameters you've given to your codec suck. Same for video. YouTube very likely allocates more bandwidth for 4k video than would be required for equivalent qualit…

With video it’s not about bitrate, but Chroma Subsampling.

Basically, mp4 and webm video only encodes the brightness channel Y at full resolution, and the color channels Pb Pr at half resolution. You can’t have mp4 or webm video without Chroma Subsampling, it’s defined in the codecs standard.

Audio codecs do something very similar, cutting off a large percentage of the higher and lower frequencies. mp3 (and AAC) for example allocate almost the entire space for the frequencies around 4 to 8kHz, and drops then drops a certain percentage of the upper frequencies entirely.

The article talks about uncompressed audio, but the topic he responds to is Apple choosing to sell 24bit/192kHz AAC lossy compressed audio. The author of the article is responding to a business decision, which has nothing to do with the actual topic of the article.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#63
post #38

This article makes the same mistake that is done frequently with video. So, let’s look at a similar issue with video. Your display is likely only 720p, or 1080p, but a 4K video on youtube will still look a lot better, although technically it should have no visible difference. But the reality is, we don’t get uncompressed video, or uncompressed audio. We have a choice between audio or video compressed with lossy codec…

Suppose you have a 5 Mbps data budget, 1080p display, and 4k source material. You will get better quality by first downsampling the 4k to 1080p and then compressing and distributing the result. If you compress and distribute the 4k, followed by downsampling to display at 1080p, you cannot recover the color and/or motion information that was lost in order to fit all of those pixels into 5 Mbps.

However, if you have a 20 Mbps budget for the 4k to account for having 4 times as much original data, then there shouldn't be much of a difference in the downsampled 1080p video (ignoring peculiarities of the codec).

All this is not very relevant to the audio issue being discussed. It would be relevant if it were physically impossible to perceive the difference between 1080p and 4k video, and if watching 4k video potentially caused optical illusions. In that case, the only reason to prefer the 20 Mbps 4k stream would be if you planned to edit, mix, or zoom around in the video instead of simply watching it.

When it comes to audio, since size isn't as much of a concern as video, in most cases I would say "maybe I'll want to edit it someday" is strong enough reason to get the 24/192 material at a correspondingly high bitrate if it's available.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#64
post #7
post #3

While the extra quality is lost on listeners, from experience I've found that super-HQ source material can change your results (for the better) when fed through distortion/compression/warming effects processors

> Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space. The article is highly technical. Does anyone have a way to describe this phenomenon intuitively?

It’s mostly because speakers aren’t the best at reproducing ultrasonic frequencies that are captured by the high resolution audio files. You might have components of the speaker that have resonances that manifest the ultrasonic frequencies at a lower frequency.

Imagine the normal operation of a speaker as a swing, except you are pushing and pulling the swing all throughout the cycle as it goes up and down. Now, you can technically move the swing at a variety of frequencies if you’re holding onto it the whole time. However imagine as you push it back and forth (low frequencies), you also vigorously shake the swing at the same time (high frequencies). This would probably result in the chains rattling, similar to the unwanted distortions in the speakers caused by ultrasonic frequencies.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#65
Good points in the article, but it has some flaws.

The problem whenever somebody writes about digital audio, is that it is very tempting to hold on to sampling theory (Nyquist limit, etc) and totally discard the problems of implementing an actual Analog-Digital and Digital-Analog chain that works perfectly at 44100Hz sample rate.

I agree with the assesment that 16 bit depth is good enough; even 14 bit is good enough and was used with good results in the past (!). However, the problem is with the sampling rate.

> All signals with content entirely below the Nyquist frequency (half the sampling rate) are captured perfectly and completely by sampling;

Here lies the problem. This is what theory says, however, when using 44KHz sample rate, this means that to capture the audio you need to low-pass at 22KHz. And this is not your gentle (6, 12 or 24db) low-pass filter; no, this needs to be HARD filtering; nothing should pass beyond 22KHz. And this must be on the analog domain, because your signal is analog. To implement such a filter, you need a brickwall analog filter and this is not only expensive, but it also makes mess with the audio, either 'ringing' effects and/or ripple on the frequency response and/or strong phase shifts.

So on Analog-to-digital in 2017, converters should be operating at a higher rate (say, 192KHz), because this makes analog filtering of the signal much easier and without side effects.

Now, for Digital-to-Analog, if your sample rate is 44KHz, you have two alternatives:

a) Analog brickwall filtering, with the problems noted above

or

b) filtering on the digital domain + using oversampling

the article mentions:

>So the math is ideal, but what of real world complications? The most notorious is the band-limiting requirement. Signals with content over the Nyquist frequency must be lowpassed before sampling to avoid aliasing distortion; this analog lowpass is the infamous antialiasing filter. Antialiasing can't be ideal in practice, but modern techniques bring it very close. ...and with that we come to oversampling."

So they are mentioning alternative (b). The problem is that oversampling does not solve all problems. Oversampling implies that the filtering is done on the digital domain and there are several choices of filtering you could use, for example FIR (Finite Impulse Response), IIR (infinite impulse response), etc.

And each one of these choices have side effects...

In short, the problem is that with 44KHz sampling rate, your filter cutoff (22KHz) is too short to your desired bandwidth (20Hz-20KHz). Using a sample rate of 192KHz gives the DAC designer much more leeway for a better conversion. And CONVERSION is the key to good digital sound.

>What actually works to improve the quality of the digital audio to which we're listening?

It is interesting that the author mentions things such as "buying better headphones" (agree), but he never mentions "Getting a better Digital to Analog converter", which is highly important !!

On the other hand, he backs up his claim that "44KHz is enough" with an interesting AES test i was already aware of in the past:

>Empirical evidence from listening tests backs up the assertion that 44.1kHz/16 bit provides highest-possible fidelity playback. There are numerous controlled tests confirming this, but I'll plug a recent paper, Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback, done by local folks here at the Boston Audio Society.

This is a very interesting paper, and I did have the copy, however the test equipment should be checked. There are systems and better systems. The AES paper cited above had the particularity that the ADC and DAC used were provided by exactly the same machine (a Sony PCM converter), with the same strategy: no oversampling, brickwall analog filters. I can bet (99% sure) that the brickwall filters were identical on the ADC and the DAC on that machine; Murata-brand filters in a package.

The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#66
post #6
post #3

While the extra quality is lost on listeners, from experience I've found that super-HQ source material can change your results (for the better) when fed through distortion/compression/warming effects processors

Is that because of the HQ audio, or because the processing software introduces less artifacts at those sample rates/bit depths? I.e. could you get the same results by up-sampling CD quality audio?

Because modern production can involve hundreds or even thousands of digital effects. So 24-bit, or even 32-bit float just because you can, is standard.

As Monty demonstrates, it's a fraudulent waste to try to sell the result as a product to the end listener.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#67
post #16
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that because of the HQ audio, or because the processing software introduces less artifacts at those sample rates/bit depths? I.e. could you get the same results by up-sampling CD quality audio?

I imagine it's because lossy codecs are tuned for human perceptual limitations, and when you process audio, it can "pull" areas of the sound that are otherwise hidden from your perception into perceptual ranges, analogous to how fiddling with the brightness/contrast of a highly compressed JPEG image can accentuate the artifacts.

But what about lossless 16/44.1KHz audio? It's not a "compressed" version of 24/192Khz. Chances are that your 192KHz music will be low pass filtered anyway, 192KHz is a trick that sound chipset vendors added so that integrators wouldn't have to make high quality analog filters for their ADCs. There's likely nothing above 22.05KHz except shaped noise, production artifacts, and very, very quiet ultrasound noises which have nothing to do with the music.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#68
post #63
post #38

This article makes the same mistake that is done frequently with video. So, let’s look at a similar issue with video. Your display is likely only 720p, or 1080p, but a 4K video on youtube will still look a lot better, although technically it should have no visible difference. But the reality is, we don’t get uncompressed video, or uncompressed audio. We have a choice between audio or video compressed with lossy codec…

Suppose you have a 5 Mbps data budget, 1080p display, and 4k source material. You will get better quality by first downsampling the 4k to 1080p and then compressing and distributing the result. If you compress and distribute the 4k, followed by downsampling to display at 1080p, you cannot recover the color and/or motion information that was lost in order to fit all of those pixels into 5 Mbps. However, if you have a…

But that’s the exact issue that this entire article is missing!

It’s all about peculiarities of the codec!

The issue at hand is apple selling 24bit/192kHz versions of lossy AAC compressed files, compared to 16bit/44.1kHz versions of AAC files.

And the issue I was comparing with video was the same – with video, codecs enforce Chroma Subsampling, where the resolution for color is half that of the actual imagery.

In the same way, AAC and mp3 heavily reduce the bandwidth for the upper half of the frequency spectrum, spending like 90% of their available bandwidth on the lower half (with 44.1kHz, they prioritize the range between 4 and 8kHz, specifically, where speech is).

The entire topic is if using a codec that specifically cuts away the lower and upper parts of the frequency spectrum, increasing the frequency spectrum can improve quality. And yes, it does. Apple is selling AAC, not WAV. Which makes the entire article useless.

Yes, we should all focus on replacing 16bit/44.1kHz AAC with 16bit/44.1kHz FLAC instead of 24bit/192kHz AAC, and we all should focus on replacing 4:2:0 1080p mp4 with 4:4:4 1080p mp4 instead of 4:2:0 4K mp4 (the chroma subsampling issue I mentioned). But that’s not the reality we live in, and given the choice between 16bit/44.1kHz AAC and 24bit/192kHz AAC, I’ll choose the second.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)

#70
post #3

While the extra quality is lost on listeners, from experience I've found that super-HQ source material can change your results (for the better) when fed through distortion/compression/warming effects processors

This is specifically addressed in the link under the section titled "When does 24 bit matter?"
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