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Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand of the article, the "1 in 500 years" measure is based on the estimated probability of a flood on a given year in a local area. So the probability of a "1 in 500 year" flood in Houston is independent of the probability of a "1 in 500 year" flood for another city.

Right what the parent comment is saying is that look at a map of the US, how many major cities are there. The odds of two "1 in 500 year" floods happening consecutively are low for any individual city. But if you have enough cities it will happen somewhere. And then you write the article about it. It's kind of analogous to hitting a golf ball into an open field and then exclaiming "Of all the blades of grass, the bal…

That makes sense, I was confused since the Birthday problem is more about the pigeonhole principle rather than larger samples being more likely to have individually unlikely outcomes.

But for this case, it would still be very unlikely. For any arbitrary 3-year span, the probability of consecutively getting a "1 in 500 year" flood for 3 years is (1/500)^3. If we have N cities, then the probability of none of these cities having 3 consecutive floods is (1-(1/500)^3)^N. For even a vast overestimate such as N=20000, it is still a significantly improbable event. Of course, this doesn't account for "3 consecutive years or more within some year range" and it is a gross simplification, but I think there are probably better explanations than selection bias, such as the inaccuracy of the model or the fact that these events might be temporally dependent on each other.

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#52
post #6

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Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#53
post #5

Fort Bend County Judge Robert Hebert stated that Hurricane Harvey is more like a 800-year event, as quoted from the statement from Monday, reported by the same newspaper WaPo[1] [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/2...

There is no way to credibly make this kind of claim. We don't have the data to quantify the recurrence rate of low-probablity events like this, nor can we be sure the the underpinning mechanism isn't changing with time.

And why would a judge (And not someone in environmental sciences) be making that claim anyway?!

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#54
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 500 year flood event is very likely new data that tells us our prediction it was a 1 in 500 year event was wrong. http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2008/07/13/500-year-floods/ It is of course possible, it was actually a once in 500 year event. I just believe it is much more likely our previous conclusion was faulty. Our prediction of 500 year floods is not very good, we rely on way less than 500 years of data.…

more likely their model is wrong. it reminds me of fukushima: https://ml.berkeley.edu/blog/2017/07/13/tutorial-4/

Their model is wrong, but it's because it assumes climate is stationary. Climatologists are actively debating what the models should look like when global warming is taken into account:

https://i.imgur.com/HLxUBim.png

edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted. I can only assume the downvotes are political in nature, which is a shame.

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 500 year flood event is very likely new data that tells us our prediction it was a 1 in 500 year event was wrong. http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2008/07/13/500-year-floods/ It is of course possible, it was actually a once in 500 year event. I just believe it is much more likely our previous conclusion was faulty. Our prediction of 500 year floods is not very good, we rely on way less than 500 years of data.…

yea its almost like the underlying model is... warming?

[deleted]

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Of course, the "once in 500 years flood" may also be an inaccurate probability as well I suspect that's it. Of course I may be falling into the same birthday paradox here, but a similar thing happened when it flooded where I lived now. The x in "x-year Flood" kept increasing (I'm inclinced to blame that on sensationalizing news for ratings), but people kept comparing it to the 3 or 4 similar floods that happened i…

There is always considerable political pressure to low-ball the estimates. That is hinted at in this article, and it happened in New York, where the first post-Sandy flood zone maps provoked widespread opposition from those in the newly-expanded zones, and they were rapidly scaled back. There is, of course, some uncertainty in the estimation, but it seems likely that the official maps will be, at best, based on the m…

Because, crucially, your mortgage may require you to buy insurance in flood plains. And it can be quite expensive.

see also https://qz.com/1063985/hurricane-harvey-why-85-of-homeowners...

There's gonna be lots of screaming when homeowners in Houston realize how much flood insurance is going to cost them in the future. We all got a preview of this in coastal Florida.

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#57
post #49

While the article obliquely makes reference to this, I wonder if this is somewhat similar to the "birthday" problem in statistics. Any given person has ~1 in 365 chance of being born on a particular day. Yet, if you have 30 people in a room, there is a greater than 50 percent chance that at least one PAIR has the same birthday. Given the hundreds of cities (thousands?) in the US that may be affected by a flood, it's…

But storms aren't people with randomly distributed cities to flood so you don't get the combinatorial effect. It's not like there are a fixed number of 500 year storms every 3 years that have to flood a uniformly distributed list of cities. The floods are supposedly independent (even if our estimates of likelihood are bad) so there's no binomial coeeficient. The simple calculation is P=1-(1-1/500^3)^N and the probabi…

Actually, in the US it is approximately 1 in 250,000 /assuming independence which is a bit of an assumption/. Obviously, nature doesn't know what a year is so it is totally possible that big storms come in batches.

Assuming 1 in 500 year floods are independent, note the ~300 cities in the US [0]. The fact that Huston is a big city doesn't seem relevant to me, because the storm doesn't care. Much like picking a specific number plate, it had to land somewhere.

The chance of there being a city in the US which has a 1 in 500 year flood is therefore 60% (300/500) each year.

The chance of that city having another flood of similar magnitude in Year 2 is 1/500, because the odds are independent and we started monitoring the city in Year 1. The chance of it flooding again the third year brings the odds down to 1/(500 * 500) = 1 in 250,000.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#58

While the article obliquely makes reference to this, I wonder if this is somewhat similar to the "birthday" problem in statistics. Any given person has ~1 in 365 chance of being born on a particular day. Yet, if you have 30 people in a room, there is a greater than 50 percent chance that at least one PAIR has the same birthday. Given the hundreds of cities (thousands?) in the US that may be affected by a flood, it's…

A 500 year flood event is very likely new data that tells us our prediction it was a 1 in 500 year event was wrong. http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2008/07/13/500-year-floods/ It is of course possible, it was actually a once in 500 year event. I just believe it is much more likely our previous conclusion was faulty. Our prediction of 500 year floods is not very good, we rely on way less than 500 years of data.…

This is part of the reason few private insurers offer flood insurance. They understand they there isn't enough information to properly price the risk. The historic data is spotty, we don't understand the geography well enough, you have to understand how construction and urbanization affects water absorption over long distances. If everyone who claimed to know what a 500-year storm looked like had to pay out every time one happened, we might have better models.

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#59

While the article obliquely makes reference to this, I wonder if this is somewhat similar to the "birthday" problem in statistics. Any given person has ~1 in 365 chance of being born on a particular day. Yet, if you have 30 people in a room, there is a greater than 50 percent chance that at least one PAIR has the same birthday. Given the hundreds of cities (thousands?) in the US that may be affected by a flood, it's…

A 500 year flood event is very likely new data that tells us our prediction it was a 1 in 500 year event was wrong. http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2008/07/13/500-year-floods/ It is of course possible, it was actually a once in 500 year event. I just believe it is much more likely our previous conclusion was faulty. Our prediction of 500 year floods is not very good, we rely on way less than 500 years of data.…

Does 1 in 500 come from assuming a normal distribution? Seems you would also need to accommodate random events like "tropical storm parks itself off the coast" which is more like a poisson process.

Re: Houston is experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nomenclature is not the problem, the problem is making numerical estimates of low probability events based on just 150 years of data and a raft of modeling assumptions.

I don't think it's accurate to say we only have 150 years of data. We only have about 150 years of data collected in real time by humans, but we have plenty of other data. (Soil/rock strata,core samples, tree rings, etc.) In some ways the geological and archeological evidence is more trustworthy than the evidence we've written down in the past century or two.

No, it's not so simple either. If 200 years ago there wasn't a city there, then any kind of soil/rock strata, core samples, tree rings etc. likely won't show flooding, and therefore won't be representative of flood risk today.

Houston is a concrete jungle, which significantly increases the risk of flooding compared to even a decade ago.

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