Where in Europe is electric car a good idea? • Hacker News Board

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#121

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 10:32 AM UTC

greglindahl wrote: post #91

stephengillie wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply from the weight they carry, the energy required for this. Supplying a large city is neither cheap nor easy, and requires dozens or hundreds of daily shipments from dozens or hundreds of logistics companies. The majority of these happen during off-peak hours, to reduce load on the highway network. Lithium batteries still can't approach 10% of gasoline's energy density, so gasoline is mandatory for trucks, and w…

For how people die from air pollution, you can start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution#Mortality For Europe's special problem with diesel cars, try Googling [europe air pollution diesel]. It brings up a bunch of good news articles. Lithium batteries don't have to approach gasoline energy density to handle local deliveries. Also, these trucks don't use gasoline, they are diesel. Again, where is your sou…

[deleted]

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#122

Post by aluhut » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 10:34 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #33

France electricity is mostly (72%) from nuclear power. Aka the most under-appreciated clean energy that everybody is panicky about and wants to get rid of. Which means, unless you have a luxury of having tons of hydropower or something, nuclear is probably the best way to lower carbon footprint. Of course, this is also the least discussed way.

So you came up with a solution for the waste now? I must have missed that. Please explain.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#123

Post by aluhut » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 10:39 AM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #50

jakobegger wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power is discussed a lot as a CO2 friendly option. The huge drawback is that we haven‘t found a way to deal with all the radioactive waste yet.

We never found a way to deal with the radioactive waste that coal plants emit into the air (look it up) or the millions of deaths that coal and petrol/diesel are responsible for, but we still use those. Per Wiki: > According to the World Health Organization in 2011, urban outdoor air pollution, from the burning of fossil fuels and biomass is estimated to cause 1.3 million deaths worldwide per year and indoor air poll…

> We never found a way to deal with the radioactive waste that coal plants emit into the air

Sure we did. We close them down where ever it's possible. Just like we should do and do with nuclear power plants.

> Nuclear is safer and better in every way even if you multiplied all the past disasters by ten. There really is no comparison.

What a brilliant argument you have there. Oh wait. No it's not. You actually did not bring anything up to counter the problem caused by nuclear plants: nuclear waste. Just some juicy whataboutism.

> its a political problem because humans have no sense of scale.

People have enough sense of scale to realize that the waste will be there forever and while some are safely away from it, others can watch your rusty barrels go to hell and pollute the environment. Funny because John Oliver had a piece about that just last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwY2E0hjGuU

What's good about that at all?!

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#124

Post by Theodores » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 10:41 AM UTC

zeristor wrote: post #7

A huge benefit of electric cars is removing pollution from cities; this seems to be forgotten. Surely if the pollution is killing thousands of people a year this is an issue.

It is not just in our cities...

As my mother pointed out, going electric is removing money from the pockets of the Saudi so-called 'royal family', thereby reducing their capacity to buy bombs and weapons from Western arms companies.

The death toll in Yemen is allegedly 10000 and every motorist with an old fashioned car is currently funding that, albeit by proxy.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#125

Post by lazyjones » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 10:42 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #112

lazyjones wrote: post #10

This article is total nonsense. No data sources provided, claims 78g/Km CO₂ for Norway with 98% renewable energy. Also completely ignores energy use for production of fossile fuels and apparently uses the circulating wild guesses for CO₂ emissions during battery production (which Elon Musk has commented on...).

Without commenting on the figures of this article, generally EV CO2e footprint is manufacturing-heavy -> total lifecycle per-km footprint is still substantial without any emissions from charging energy.

> total lifecycle per-km footprint is still substantial without any emissions from charging energy.

The "total lifecycle CO₂-per-Km footprint" is a pointless and deliberately misleading figure when its basis of calculation is (almost completely) independent of the distance driven, but it suggests that driving the vehicle is subject to a high amount of emissions per Km. The opposite is true: EV lifecycle CO₂/Km becomes lower the more you drive.

Besides, deliberately including highly speculative CO₂ amounts from vehicle production and refuelling should be done in all cases: how much CO₂ is emitted by ships and satellite launches used in detection of crude oil reserves?

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#126

Post by barrkel » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 10:50 AM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #120

manmal wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that gasoline cars do not pollute? Check this out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22126432 Electric cars can be (and are) charged with power generated with low pollution methods (solar, wind, water turbine...), while a gasoline, or worse, diesel powered car, will always pollute. Additionally, e-cars are more power efficient, even after subtracting line and charging heat losses. Coal burning power…

No I am not saying gasoline cars don't pollute. I making the pedantic point that saying "electric cars move the pollution" is technically inaccurate. It is better to say "electric cars pollute in places physically displaced from where they are used".

Any normal reading of English would understand a world before electric cars, and a world after electric cars, as having moved pollution. We're talking at a higher level of abstraction, where the mover is a change in the mix of polluters.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#127

Post by petra » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 11:06 AM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #106

petra wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the seriousness the human race dedicated to creating safe nuclear energy, it looks almost comical:we settled on the first technology we found(pressured water reactors), because it fitted best for the requirents of the Navy at the time, not because it offered the best safety for citizens, far from it.And than, in the name of safety, we created an environment that prevented from new designs to become com…

> "But we now have reactors types that (a) can't physically blow up , their temperature is limited, and (b) contain very little to no radioactive gasses , so even in the worst case scenario, we'll be just left with an enclosed pool of radioactive material, which is safe." Interested in learning more about these reactor types. I hear different reactor names discussed, but I'm not sure what's right on the cutting edge.

I think moltex is among the best.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#128

Post by secult » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 11:14 AM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #10

This article is total nonsense. No data sources provided, claims 78g/Km CO₂ for Norway with 98% renewable energy. Also completely ignores energy use for production of fossile fuels and apparently uses the circulating wild guesses for CO₂ emissions during battery production (which Elon Musk has commented on...).

I believe that the article is demonstrating some point, and this point is obvious. It's not a scientific article, and even though author does not provide information about data source that doesn't mean that there is no data source.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#129

Post by CM30 » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 11:14 AM UTC

Have to admit, I expected a slightly more general look at the situation here, not just the places where an electrical car does less harm to the environment than a normal one. For example, it might reduce CO2 emissions to have an electric car in London... but at the same time it may be better (and more convenient) to just not have a car there at all. Who cares how good it is for the environment it is if you can't find parking, traffic is a nightmare and there are many better options involving public transport?

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#130

Post by gchadwick » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 11:14 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #111

gchadwick wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK off peak tariffs are available. It's a bit of a pain because it requires two meters but if someone was installing an electric charging point I imagine many would add an economy 7 (the name of the off peak tariff) meter at the same time.

it requires two meters Why?! Two-rate meters have been around for decades, long before they went digital.

Ok, it may require changing to a two rate meter then :)

Never actually used an economy 7 tariff myself so I don't know the details but the point is most houses in the UK aren't equipped to have one. However a home-owner choosing to install a charging point for an electric vehicle will probably switch to a suitable metering setup for economy 7 whilst they're at it.