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Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

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Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#151

Post by eropple »

franciscop wrote: post #147
jbergstroem wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something exists doesn't mean one has to care. The problem with "frontend fatigue" is similar to what we see elsewhere; caring about problems one doesn't have or own in the first place. I'm not addressing you specifically (as your comment seems more observatory) - but I reckon it's still worth pointing out. Let the curious create and share their creation with the world.

I agree about the principles but not about how it happens on the real world. Many front-end jobs now require you to know at least one front-end framework (normally React), which is a totally different and focused problem-solving tool. Before you had jQuery that scaled from small, personal projects to mid-size projects. This worked great as a learning progression, however now you have React (and others) that don't mak…

I really dunno - I find React to work really, really well in the small and medium projects where I do (any) web work. Coming to React after years away from frontend development, and avoiding it because of things like jQuery, was really awesome because it demands that you enforce separations of concerns in a way that really appeals to me.

Hell, I generate HTML email with React, now. No reason not to; it's great. Simple, understandable tree of reusable components that have understandable data flows--sign me right up.

The biggest problem with it is the initial activation energy of a new project, which is partially solved through create-react-app and largely solved by doing it once in a replicable way. (I've been creating React projects off of the same base for quite awhile now.)

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#152

Post by eropple »

bartread wrote: post #121
hashbig wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a fun time to be a front-end developer?

No: it leaves no goat unblown. Particularly for people new to it. Back in the day anyone could hack together a bit of JS for their website and get something up and running, even if it was a bit Heath Robinson. You actually still can do this but you wouldn't necessarily come away with that impression from reading about front-end development. Cynically, it sometimes feels like front-end developers are overcompensating…

> Particularly for people new to it.

I'm pretty new to it still, and boy do I disagree with this. I hadn't touched web development for about five years, prior experience being largely JavaScript-free after being chased well off by an employer's MooTools monstrosity, and coming to the modern JS world, with React and even Redux (though I think its APIs feel really clunky), was awesome.

These tools are less "Heath Robinson" and more prove that you understand what your stuff is doing, but that's a feature--I'd rather put in the spadework up front and be more assured of it doing expected things when it runs.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#153

Post by eropple »

brlewis wrote: post #123
baybal2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can you really prove that feeling? because that's far from my experience and far from logical too.. Cyclomatic complexity went up many times. Going over a simple for loop in under 100 kilocycles for client side page generation was considered ok back 10 years ago. Even then, browsers had no problem with that. Compare that with 20 plus layers of deep merges, with closure tricks, with prototype swapping on the fly in a…

I wouldn't describe modern front-end web dev that way at all. Here's how I describe it: https://medium.com/front-end-hacking/how-it-feels-to-learn-j...

FWIW, this post is awesome. Thank you for sharing it.

I just submitted it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15108546

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#154

Post by ng12 »

hashbig wrote: post #101
iansowinski wrote: post #92

So we are here. It didn't took so long for vue to go from "will vue be new react ?" To "vuejs alternative".

Isn't it a fun time to be a front-end developer?

Hell yeah! We're finally iterating on the problems that have made web development suck -- state management, non-imperative models, reasonable abstraction layers, modularization, etc. Fatigue is a good problem to have, it means people are trying really hard to solve important problems.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#155

Post by localvoid »

spankalee wrote: post #115
kbr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compiler treats everything as static by default. When the compiler detects something dynamic (such as a {{mustache}} template), it will mark the current node as dynamic, and the parent node as well. These propagate up the tree so Moon eventually has a render function that is extremely optimized and can skip everything static, and the diff will only hit the nodes that can change. Moon also has a stricter syntax fo…

This is really great to see the emphasis on static vs dynamic parts in templates. Polymer, Glimmer, and some other template systems make the distinction between static and dynamic content, but React and most other vdom libraries don't. I was looking for options for HTML templating in JS found that JS template literals very naturally separate static and dynamic sections between the literals and expressions. I've been…

> This is really great to see the emphasis on static vs dynamic parts in templates. Polymer, Glimmer, and some other template systems make the distinction between static and dynamic content, but React and most other vdom libraries don't.

https://github.com/facebook/react/issues/3226

All other "static" optimizations doesn't make any noticeable difference in performance in highly optimized vdom libraries. In fact, they are usually decrease overall performance because of increased implementation complexity.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#156

Post by photojosh »

adjkant wrote: post #145
photojosh wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to do anything on my webapp that uses a JS framework (the minimal interactivity is raw JS and at most a touch of jQuery) precisely because I've yet to see a framework that I was somewhat confident would be relatively stable over the long term, say 10 years? Something like "COBOL for the web" would be ideal. But if I were starting now I wouldn't choose Angular 1.x, would I? Any recommendations.

Angular 1 has its flaws but I've found it to be pretty stable, has developed some pretty consistent paradigms, and gets certain jobs done well. Don't put the round peg in a square hole, but I think it serves many web apps well, particularly if you're going the SPA route and don't care too much about things like viewing without javascript or ultra fast load times. I used it first in a personal project, then in a job,…

My position exactly: backend developer who only wants to do the minimum on the frontend.

But for the next stage of the system (rich media streaming), it will require a whole lot more interactivity on the front end and the time has come to decide on something!

I'm leaning towards Vue because it seems easier to grok as a solo developer while still having plenty of power and support... but I'm indecisive!

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#157

Post by shusson »

swlkr wrote: post #136

If your web app is highly interactive and has a very complex user interface with lots of animations and small http requests you would be well served to use React, vue or this thing. If your web app doesn't have that, which I imagine the majority do not, don't use any client side framework at all. Javascript still works, even without a framework.

> Javascript still works, even without a framework

Are you suggesting jquery?

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#158

Post by always_good »

franciscop wrote: post #147
jbergstroem wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something exists doesn't mean one has to care. The problem with "frontend fatigue" is similar to what we see elsewhere; caring about problems one doesn't have or own in the first place. I'm not addressing you specifically (as your comment seems more observatory) - but I reckon it's still worth pointing out. Let the curious create and share their creation with the world.

I agree about the principles but not about how it happens on the real world. Many front-end jobs now require you to know at least one front-end framework (normally React), which is a totally different and focused problem-solving tool. Before you had jQuery that scaled from small, personal projects to mid-size projects. This worked great as a learning progression, however now you have React (and others) that don't mak…

Dunno, the only apps I can think of that don't benefit from React are just toy apps or little things like upgrades.

You're way off if you think React doesn't work for anything other than large apps.

I've been bitten this many times where my "little app" grew, and the non-framework code complexity would grow quadratically where I regretted not just using a framework like React in the first place. So when I hear "React is just for large apps", I can't take it very seriously.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#159

Post by swlkr »

shusson wrote: post #157
swlkr wrote: post #136

If your web app is highly interactive and has a very complex user interface with lots of animations and small http requests you would be well served to use React, vue or this thing. If your web app doesn't have that, which I imagine the majority do not, don't use any client side framework at all. Javascript still works, even without a framework.

> Javascript still works, even without a framework Are you suggesting jquery?

Could be jQuery could be rolling your own set of functions depending on how far back your users are with their IE versions.

http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/

I guess I should also say you don't need a virtual DOM to make web apps. I personally like things like turbolinks (https://github.com/turbolinks/turbolinks)

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