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Can we know what animals are thinking?

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Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#121

Post by pier25 »

cryodesign wrote: post #74
pier25 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that being a vegetarian for moral reasons is quite delusional. We, humans, are inflicting much more suffering to flora and fauna by the simple fact of participating in the industrial modern lifestyle. Buying food at the supermarket, using the internet, travelling, AC, and pretty much any activity we can think of. The underlying problem is that to sustain 7+ billion people we need industrialisation which requir…

You are right, farming could be more sustainable and less destructive (see vertical farm, aeroponics etc). But it's been proven that producing meat requires more resources than producing plant based foods. So if we truly care about feeding 7+ billion people, then we would reduce our meat consumption or move to a plant based diet completely. This is one thing each of us can directly do something about - by simply buyi…

> But it's been proven that producing meat requires more resources than producing plant based foods

It's true, but you can see the global sources of emissions here.

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emiss...

As I hope you can see we have bigger problems to worry about.

> What do you think seeing animals being killed, sliced open alive etc day in day out does to the human psyche

My grandparents killed animals on their farm regularly. Not only they were good moral people, but their way of life was much more sustainable and respectful of the planet than any of us here.

By focusing on something that shocks you personally you are missing the whole picture.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#122

Post by shanev »

arthurwinter wrote: post #99

I find it incredible that in 2017 people still debate if animals can think. You just need to interact with one or more dogs to understand that they think, and in most cases they think much better than humans. Lately seeing what humans did and still do to planet Earth, and what they do to each other based on completely made up topics like religion or plain material topics like skin color is making me wonder if humans…

I agree with your overall sentiment. But just because there aren't animals on your plate, doesn't mean they weren't killed in bringing food to your plate. For example, published studies show that at least 25 times more sentient animals are killed per kilogram of useable protein when producing industrial wheat and other grain [1].

Not eating animals isn't enough. You have to find ethically sourced food. So ironically, eating meat from animals raised on pasture causes less animal cruelty than eating industrial wheat / grain-based food.

[1]: https://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-the...

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#123

Post by ChristianBundy »

Teichopsia wrote: post #109
arthurwinter wrote: post #99

I find it incredible that in 2017 people still debate if animals can think. You just need to interact with one or more dogs to understand that they think, and in most cases they think much better than humans. Lately seeing what humans did and still do to planet Earth, and what they do to each other based on completely made up topics like religion or plain material topics like skin color is making me wonder if humans…

First an anecdote. I was laying on the floor in my bedroom and my dog wanted to come in. I told her not to, she stood with her front paws at the entrance for half a second, did a 180 degree turn, body inside the room and started to walk in backwards. I'll never forget that. I agree with what you say but have yet managed to stop eating them. They taste good. Hopefully one day I'll manage to grow some more backbone. Wh…

> Hopefully one day I'll manage to grow some more backbone.

No pressure, but personally I spent a few hours watching documentaries on Netflix and I completely flipped from "logically plants are more efficient" to "I will avoid animal products as much as possible/practical". You may have a different experience, but it's extraordinary how much effort is put into keeping consumers unaware of where these products come from.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#124

Post by cryodesign »

pier25 wrote: post #121
cryodesign wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, farming could be more sustainable and less destructive (see vertical farm, aeroponics etc). But it's been proven that producing meat requires more resources than producing plant based foods. So if we truly care about feeding 7+ billion people, then we would reduce our meat consumption or move to a plant based diet completely. This is one thing each of us can directly do something about - by simply buyi…

> But it's been proven that producing meat requires more resources than producing plant based foods It's true, but you can see the global sources of emissions here. https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emiss... As I hope you can see we have bigger problems to worry about. > What do you think seeing animals being killed, sliced open alive etc day in day out does to the human psyche My grandparents ki…

Thanks for that link. I'll have a look.

But why can't we act on multiple fronts? We can do many things to reduce our carbon foot print, and choosing not to eat meat or reducing it is one of those things.

Our meat consumption is a big problem environmentally - see https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meat-and-environm...

Also, the way we farm animals now a days is completely different to when your grand parents farmed them. Using factory farming to feed the world is just not sustainable.

Look, I get it - most people can't give up meat, we're addicted to it and it's also cultural. But what we can do is giving a signal to the market that we demand better, by choosing to buy alternatives that are better on many fronts, like Beyond Meat etc.

That's why I really admire the work by Ethan Brown, he's trying to create meat using plant protein. You should watch the presentation by him I posted earlier - you might find it interesting.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#125

Post by tanilama »

What is the question you want to ask? I think this is a bigger question than it presents here. We don't really know what is thoughts actually, what is the actual representation of it. If we don't even know what we trying to study, the conclusion might be pretty useless.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#126

Post by alexashka »

arthurwinter wrote: post #99

I find it incredible that in 2017 people still debate if animals can think. You just need to interact with one or more dogs to understand that they think, and in most cases they think much better than humans. Lately seeing what humans did and still do to planet Earth, and what they do to each other based on completely made up topics like religion or plain material topics like skin color is making me wonder if humans…

Cynicism and emotional hyperbole are some of the less appealing and helpful human traits.

Given the choice of being around lifelong cynics who think people ought to act the way they think AND vegetarian, or people who have a positive mindset and snap the necks of rabbits and shoot deer every weekend, I'll take the rabbit killers every time.

When I was younger - I thought I was smart because highschool teachers are not terribly bright. Then I got out into the real world and realized a thing or two.

When you're a cynical crybaby in school - they have to put up with you. When you're a cynical crybaby out in the real world, you'll be alone writing things on the internet because nobody wants to hear it, or around other losers, complaining about how everyone else is doing it wrong :)

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#127

Post by roceasta »

tanilama wrote: post #125

What is the question you want to ask? I think this is a bigger question than it presents here. We don't really know what is thoughts actually, what is the actual representation of it. If we don't even know what we trying to study, the conclusion might be pretty useless.

Another example: we ask whether animals are 'conscious' or not, or we declare ex cathedra that certain animals are conscious, all the while without being able to explain what consciousness is, or what qualia are, or how these work.

If we could then we'd know if the question made sense.

I like David Deutsch's criterion for assessing claims about these issues: if you can't program it, you haven't understood it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J21QuHrIqXg

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#128

Post by AsyncAwait »

roceasta wrote: post #85
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #36

I think the more rational position would be that animals do think, as we are animals, and we think. To claim that animals do not think has no basis outside of our own condescending perspective. If we cannot prove one way or another then I feel my position is the more rational and should be the default position.

You're trying to explain why you think animals can think. The desire and the ability to explain things, and not thinking per se, is (I guess) what distinguishes humans from animals.

> The desire and the ability to explain things, and not thinking per se, is (I guess) what distinguishes humans from animals.

But how do you know that animals have no desire or ability to explain things to each other, at least amongst their own species? We may not be able to read it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we already know that a parent can 'teach' its offspring that something is dangerous, for example among elephants this is even fairly easily observable.

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#129

Post by unfunco »

raarts wrote: post #107
KekDemaga wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This crow really appears to be thinking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerUbHmuY04&app=desktop

Maybe it only appears to be, but in fact it's some animal form of ML. Hard to say I guess.

Some animal form of ML? Like… learning?

Re: Can we know what animals are thinking?

#130

Post by remir »

gaius wrote: post #118
remir wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite shocking to realize that we're not the owners of the thoughts inside our mind, even the thoughts beginning with "I" ( "I'm stupid", "Oh shit I will be late!", "I hate this fucking job!" , etc). We identify with these thoughts, believing we are their originator, but it's the biggest illusion of all.

Are you referring to bicameralism?

I'm only referring to my own experience.
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