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Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

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Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#51

Post by wohlergehen »

andlier wrote: post #44

I'm a bit tired of all these CO2 comparisons regarding electric vehicles. If we put the CO2 emissions aside, there are so many other benefits moving to EV's. Especially reduced local pollution in cities such as NOx, VOC and particulate emissions. Even if we just look at noise and easy maintenance, electric cars are clear winners. All this focus on CO2 just leads to a lot of inaccurate napkin calculations on one part…

As an added bonus, the big coal exporting countries tend to be relatively more democratic than the big oil exporting countries.

I.e. electrical power is already relatively cleaner by not supporting horrible regimes (cf. Saudi Arabia or Nigeria).

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#52

Post by jaxbot »

Eupolemos wrote: post #49
valuearb wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an incredibly minor problem compared to global warming. I'd solve the more important one first.

It's minor now. But if it turns out that we'll need an active (as in "needs manpower") care-taking of this waste for several thousands of years, we get into the compounded interests area. Also, there's the immediate (last 50 years) issues such as barrels of waste being treated in silly manners; e.g. thrown into the ocean near the coast and shot to pieces by air-planes if they surface... Politicians and corporations w…

You are literally just quoting the most recent John Oliver episode.

There's an interesting rebuttal to his episode here that is worth reading: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/08/24/please-jo...

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#53

Post by Kon5ole »

smsm42 wrote: post #33

France electricity is mostly (72%) from nuclear power. Aka the most under-appreciated clean energy that everybody is panicky about and wants to get rid of. Which means, unless you have a luxury of having tons of hydropower or something, nuclear is probably the best way to lower carbon footprint. Of course, this is also the least discussed way.

I am one of the "panicky" ones and I want to explain my point of view.

When I was a kid, living in the equivalent of Kentucky, a nuclear accident in the equivalent of the Bahamas made it so we couldn't eat wild berries from the woods anymore.

Now a middle aged man over 30 years later, sheep from my home area still measure levels of radioactivity too high for human consumption.

That's why I feel most options are better than nuclear power, for any purpose except perhaps space probes.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#54

Post by greglindahl »

smsm42 wrote: post #33

France electricity is mostly (72%) from nuclear power. Aka the most under-appreciated clean energy that everybody is panicky about and wants to get rid of. Which means, unless you have a luxury of having tons of hydropower or something, nuclear is probably the best way to lower carbon footprint. Of course, this is also the least discussed way.

Least discussed? It comes up all of the time on HN! Roughly the same things get said every time, too.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#55

Post by Reason077 »

emj wrote: post #32
Reason077 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And noise! Not so much from cars, which are reasonably quiet these days. But trucks and motorbikes, especially, can be appallingly loud and make our cities unpleasant places to be.

The greatest sound pollution from cars is the tires noise. At low speeds this is not noticable but the faster you go the worse it is, I believe engine noise is overtaken by tire noise somewhere above 30km/h. This sound is spread 10km in each direction from a highway, the areas which are truly spared the noise of cars are hard to find these days.

With cars, at highway speeds, you're right - but engine noise is a much more significant factor for motorcycles (some of which are absurdly loud) and heavy trucks/buses.

In built-up cities, like London, these vehicles are usually traveling at relatively low speeds anyway, so it's really engine noise that is the problem.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#56

Post by Reason077 »

virmundi wrote: post #37
greglindahl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not forgotten by the authorities! In the SF Bay Area the local air quality council subsidizes electric car chargers. EVs reduce the total pollution and moves what's left out of the prone-to-atmospheric-inversions Bay Area.

Isn't ozone worse than traditional pollution and the main byproduct of electrical cars? So unless we go into a draconian charge laws, will cause more harm in this regard. http://www.iop.org/news/11/april/page_50606.html

NOx from diesel vehicles is by far the most significant source of ground-level ozone in most European cities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_ozone#Formation

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#57

Post by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 »

I'd say a better title for this article/graph would be "How would electric cars affect CO2 output in European countries?" or something along that line.

There's far more to a specific car being a good idea considering the differences between EVs and ICEVs (but of course the needs vary inside countries as well). However, an electric car is much less attractive in a land of long distances where you often need to keep the batteries pre-heated to provide even reasonable range (and even keep your warranty!) – even if the country's electricity production is not dominated by fossil fuels.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#58

Post by _ph_ »

Kon5ole wrote: post #53
smsm42 wrote: post #33

France electricity is mostly (72%) from nuclear power. Aka the most under-appreciated clean energy that everybody is panicky about and wants to get rid of. Which means, unless you have a luxury of having tons of hydropower or something, nuclear is probably the best way to lower carbon footprint. Of course, this is also the least discussed way.

I am one of the "panicky" ones and I want to explain my point of view. When I was a kid, living in the equivalent of Kentucky, a nuclear accident in the equivalent of the Bahamas made it so we couldn't eat wild berries from the woods anymore. Now a middle aged man over 30 years later, sheep from my home area still measure levels of radioactivity too high for human consumption. That's why I feel most options are bette…

Here in Bavaria, every single wild boar shot still has to be checked for radioactivity, quite a few have to be destroyed for too high radiation values. Equally, it is recommended not to eat too many mushrooms from the forest. All of this due to the Chernobyl accident more than 30 years ago.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#59

Post by PhasmaFelis »

stephengillie wrote: post #46
BoorishBears wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>removing pollution from cities They move the pollution from a tailpipe feet away from people to a large smoke stack specially optimized to lower the effect on air quality in the immediate area.

Combustion is just one type of pollution that cars produce. And while relocating pollution is a tempting way to externalize the problem, it doesn't solve the underlying issue.

It reduces overall emissions by a lot, and saves thousands of lives even beyond that.

Dismissing any solution that doesn't 100% fix everything is a great way to never accomplish anything.

Re: Where in Europe is electric car a good idea?

#60

Post by Reason077 »

adrianN wrote: post #34
hengheng wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasses yes, but a large part of the particulates is actually emitted by the tires (through abrasion).

A large part of the mass, but not a large part of the PM2.5 and below. With particulates, smaller is a lot more dangerous.

That's correct. In normal conditions, the vast majority of tire particles are very large and stick to the road where they are eventually washed away by rain. Not small enough to hang in the air and end up in our lungs.

Aerosolized tire particulates are mostly a problem in tunnels, where they keep getting thrown up into the air by passing vehicles and recirculating.

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