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Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

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Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#41

Post by zzalpha »

kbr wrote: post #37
zzalpha wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, so first of all, it wasn't a rant, it was a joke and a bit of a jab, and you gotta admit these days there's good reason for people to be... uhh... skeptical about yet-another-JS-library. Second, that reaction isn't about not wanting to "make decisions"... that simplifies a rather complex set of thoughts and beliefs that are driven by the often-comical Javascript world, which appears to favour extreme complexity…

Yeah, I was just saying my thoughts against the hate towards new JS frameworks in general. While this reaction was a joke, there are tons of people that would have been ranting about another Javascript framework. I am by no means trying to force people to use Moon. Instead, I am trying to show something that you might want to consider if you use and like Vue, as it is smaller and faster. I agree I might need to repos…

Nice little write-up! Thanks!

And, I should just point out: the original commenter, and myself, may have our... let's call it lack of patience with the JS community. But don't be discouraged by a little bitterness... as you mention in your blog post, there's definitely javascript library fatigue out there, and for good reason. But if the work is good, it'll speak for itself! Everything else is just marketing, and if you're not interested in pushing the project toward broader adoption, just keep on keeping on! Either people will use it or they won't, and either way you'll have learned a lot along the way, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#42

Post by jacquesm »

kbr wrote: post #37
zzalpha wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, so first of all, it wasn't a rant, it was a joke and a bit of a jab, and you gotta admit these days there's good reason for people to be... uhh... skeptical about yet-another-JS-library. Second, that reaction isn't about not wanting to "make decisions"... that simplifies a rather complex set of thoughts and beliefs that are driven by the often-comical Javascript world, which appears to favour extreme complexity…

Yeah, I was just saying my thoughts against the hate towards new JS frameworks in general. While this reaction was a joke, there are tons of people that would have been ranting about another Javascript framework. I am by no means trying to force people to use Moon. Instead, I am trying to show something that you might want to consider if you use and like Vue, as it is smaller and faster. I agree I might need to repos…

Was there a specific reason you chose to do a rewrite rather than to improve vue.js?

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#43

Post by ausjke »

the issue is that, for product development, it is really about the whole package, the ecosystem that is, which includes third-party modules/add-ons, documents, longevity concerns, road maps, tools around it and so on. one shining improvement is normally not enough.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#44

Post by sAbakumoff »

colbyh wrote: post #40
sAbakumoff wrote: post #17

So far, the Infinite monkey theorem is just giving us an infinite number of javascript frameworks, and no Shakespeare

well by logical extension the theorem provides that at least one of these frameworks should end up being Shakespeare..so at least we have that going for us?

There is very interesting wiki article about the theorem, highly recommend to read it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#45

Post by jacquesm »

SeriousM wrote: post #39

So moon is the alternative to vue which is the alternative to angular(ui engine)/react... Oh dear... How those frameworks want to get used in a wider manner when they place themselves in a 10% of 10% of 30% of the market segment?

It's a good thing that writing an OS is a bit more complex or we'd have seen a huge fragmentation of that space too.

What's bugging me is that most JS work would have probably been better off as an improvement on something existing.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#46

Post by kbr »

jacquesm wrote: post #42
kbr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was just saying my thoughts against the hate towards new JS frameworks in general. While this reaction was a joke, there are tons of people that would have been ranting about another Javascript framework. I am by no means trying to force people to use Moon. Instead, I am trying to show something that you might want to consider if you use and like Vue, as it is smaller and faster. I agree I might need to repos…

Was there a specific reason you chose to do a rewrite rather than to improve vue.js?

Yup. Moon is completely different internally than Vue. Submitting a PR to Vue would require a rewrite of Vue itself, and would change a lot of it.

Moon's goal isn't to have complete API compatibility with Vue, but instead to have a light alternative with a similar API.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#47

Post by erikpukinskis »

sAbakumoff wrote: post #17

So far, the Infinite monkey theorem is just giving us an infinite number of javascript frameworks, and no Shakespeare

This is what research looks like. You keep trying new things, making small improvements if you can. But sometimes you just try something different and it's not better.

The truth, with software, is you don't really know what the implications of a design change are until you use it. We know a lot about what's good and bad about React now because we used it for a ton of stuff. That's the equivalent of taking your test vehicle out on the roads and testing it. In order to do that testing, these things get posted on Hacker News. Making your library mostly error free, putting docs up on GitHub... That's just getting it ready to actually test the ideas in that library.

The JavaScript community is one of the most research friendly communities out there. That's because we basically don't have a standard library, we have to send our entire application over the wire in less than a second, we can't really change the runtime, and people often want us to build new applications in a matter of days.

I get it, there are other realms of software development where you just have standardized tools, where stability is supreme, where you want to write huge checks and get back predictable quantities of mostly error free software. I get that.

But this comment shitting on JavaScript for changing too much, it's like making fun of a kid for saying weird stuff. If you want something comprehensible and predictable, go use something else! Let things be what they are. Appreciate that we have choices and different languages have different goals. Don't beat the same drum over and over of "JavaScript is too JavaScripty!"

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#48

Post by jacquesm »

kbr wrote: post #46
jacquesm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there a specific reason you chose to do a rewrite rather than to improve vue.js?

Yup. Moon is completely different internally than Vue. Submitting a PR to Vue would require a rewrite of Vue itself, and would change a lot of it. Moon's goal isn't to have complete API compatibility with Vue, but instead to have a light alternative with a similar API.

Fair enough. I take it that you weighed the cost of fragmentation versus the advantage that a rewrite would give you. Even so, it feels to me - as an outsider, without having looked in depth at either code base - that it might have been better to see how far you could have pushed vue.js with respect to your improvements before deciding to roll your own. After all, now you are comparing apples with oranges, many of your improvements likely would have applied to vue.js as well and then the difference between your offering and theirs would have been a lot smaller, possibly small enough not to justify a for and yet another incompatible API.

These are hard decisions.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#49

Post by kbr »

ausjke wrote: post #43

the issue is that, for product development, it is really about the whole package, the ecosystem that is, which includes third-party modules/add-ons, documents, longevity concerns, road maps, tools around it and so on. one shining improvement is normally not enough.

I agree! Moon has an official router[1], store[2], CLI[3], and an SSR module[4]. It might not have the biggest community, but that is why I am here :)

[1] https://github.com/kbrsh/moon-router

[2] https://github.com/kbrsh/monx

[3] https://github.com/kbrsh/moon-cli

[4] https://github.com/kbrsh/moon-ssr

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#50

Post by pspeter3 »

oever wrote: post #38
kbr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really cool! I'll definitely look into this and apply some of it to Moon.

BareDOM is a proof of concept, the code is not very clean, but I'm sure you can get the ideas. Since Moon has a specific way of using the DOM, you might be able to cut down on the number of array positions per node (currently 8).

Is there any documentation on why to use a typed array
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