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How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

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Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, they're engaged in other STEM fields at 2x-3x the extent they're engaged in CS... That statement is so broad as to render it utterly meaningless. I don't doubt it applies to medicine, for example. But does it apply to automotive or mining engineering? And even if it did apply to every non-CS STEM field, that still would not preclude the possibility that women, as a group, are simply not as interested in CS to t…

Earth sciences. Chemistry. Biochemistry. Math (for Christ's sake). Astronomy. Statistics. Evolutionary biology. Neuroscience. Molecular biology. All double-digits better (some have actual parity) in female representation than computer science, which shares its gender disparity distinction with only two other (generally defined) STEM fields: ee/mech engineering and physics. Nobody is disputing that women are less inte…

tptacek I agree with you that software needs more women, I think it would be good for women, and good for software. And contrary to that recent memo I think we should do more to encourage women to join CS.

I think it's really important to get the cause right because if we fix the wrong problem we'll be spinning our wheels instead of getting women to join tech. And I haven't been entirely convinced the gender gap is due to sexism and hostility in the workplace because what my female friends and developers say doesn't jive with that theory.

When I ask my female friends, who are very smart and would kick ass as developers, "why don't wanna you wanna join programming? Pay is great you could double your salary in two years", they usually say something along the lines of "I don't think I'd like it" or "sounds boring to sit in front of a computer all day".

And when I've heard my female friends talk about leaving programming its never been because someone made a slightly sexist comment once every couple of months. They all talked about how that was annoying but didn't really bother them. But they usually said that sometimes they fantasize about a job where they get to work with people more, and make a positive impact one they could see like therapy and teaching. (granted the female developers I know work for large companies with powerful HR departments so the level of sexism probably isn't representative of the startup scene)

I'm curious if you've had a very different experience. Do the women in your life like to program but have been turned off from doing it professionally because of perceived or actual hostility and sexism in the workplace?

What resources(ideally empirical) would you recommend to convince someone who was skeptical but open minded to the hostility hypothesis that it's true? Do you think this hypothesis is tentative but likely or do you think the evidence is so overwhelmingly in support of this hypothesis that it's an open and shut case?

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#252
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except the links you posted don't dispute Damore's arguments at all. Which argument? That there could possibly be innate psychological differences between the sexes etc. (which is not Damore's point, but a distraction), or that this has anything to do with the problem we're trying to solve with diversity programs? The consensus is absolutely that there is a sexism problem. Damore pays lip service to the "existence"…

You have no idea what I know or believe, and you clearly are even having trouble reading the arguments presented to you rather than some ridiculous straw man you've built in your head. I don't have time for people who argue in bad faith and who make absurd assumptions about anyone who disagrees with them.

How can you even know you disagree without knowing the most basic concepts? You are arguing over the likelihood of Goldbach's conjecture being true without even knowing what the natural numbers are, while relying on some chemistry studies, whose relation to the natural numbers is unclear to you. I don't know how it's possible to argue "in good faith" with someone who is completely unfamiliar with the subject and refuses to learn.

To summarize, Damore wrote some memo whose intent was to show that Google should not invest in diversity programs. Those diversity programs are intended to fight sexism; I don't know how effective they are, but neither does Damore. His "arguments" consisted not of denying sexism (the meaning of which he clearly does not know), but of quoting some papers in yet another field he's not an expert in that purport to show that there are other factors involved. Those papers and others similar to them have been largely debated in the research community, and knowing nothing about that field, I could add nothing to that argument except parrot others. But I do know what sexism is, and I know the basics of logic well enough to see that there is no relevance to those findings even if they were true (again, a heavily contested point in itself).

He was fired for making a scene that required the CEO of Google to cut short his family vacation. If he were working for me, I would have fired him for incompetence and stupidity. Incompetence, because the guy does not know how to make a logical argument, lacks critical thinking, and failed to do even cursory study of the topic he discusses. Stupidity, because he didn't realize or didn't care that expressing himself -- a complete layman, and a rather disinterested one at that -- in that particular way, would have a negative effect on his coworkers and his employer. He's one of those people whose professional contribution to a company is negative.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#253
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting these gender topics have a comparable consensus ratio? Uh, yeah. A comparable ratio of social scholars are convinced that sexism is a major cause of the power disparity between the sexes. > If so, evidence of this consensus should be trivial for you to produce. It is. Like I said, it's on fucking Wikipedia! > A humiliation and dependence that none of the outraged people actually lived through. Re…

> Uh, yeah. A comparable ratio of social scholars are convinced that sexism is a major cause of the power disparity between the sexes. That's not the claim being disputed. Either you're trying to participate in too many threads and losing the context, or you have serious reading comprehension problems. > It is. Like I said, it's on fucking Wikipedia! Show it. You keep saying this, yet your comment history cites no sp…

> This is an unfortunate tactic employed on both sides, and I frankly don't have the patience for it.

Obviously, I think this is exactly what you're doing...

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#254
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sound we're hearing is the goal posts breaking the sound barrier. I'll explain this to you step-by-step. Your claim was that, well it's a little difficult because you dodge and weave all the time. Anyway, you claimed that there was simply no scientific evidence for what Damore said. When that turned out to be wrong, you claimed that the science was wrong, again without any evidence. When it turned out the scienc…

That sound we're hearing is your willful ignorance and lack of interest in the subject you so vehemently argue over breaking the sound barrier, and the meaningless buzzing of someone who has zero knowledge about a subject yet continues to debate it with furor. > you claimed that there was simply no scientific evidence for what Damore said. No. I said that what Damore wrote is completely irrelevant, whether true or no…

As before, I have to thank you for clearly exposing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of this position more clearly than I ever could have.

Science? Irrelevant.

Truth? A distraction.

Math? Don't understand, don't want to understand.

Logic? Don't bother us with that.

What people say/write? Who cares?

What people want? I know what they should want.

It's a pure power play with no redeeming qualities and nothing to back it whatsoever. The whole thing hinges on the rhetorical trick of redefining words in such a way that the definitions already contain the conclusion you wish to reach, for which there is no actual evidence, and therefore you demand that as a precondition for having a discussion with you one must already accept your conclusions.

Well, it's such a cheap trick that it doesn't even pass the "debating 101" silly tricks laugh test, and just because you've constrained yourself to being inside an echo chamber that reinforces these religious beliefs (because that is all they are) unquestioningly doesn't actually give you any authority to speak on the subject.

So: thanks again, you've done a marvelous job.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#255
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sound we're hearing is your willful ignorance and lack of interest in the subject you so vehemently argue over breaking the sound barrier, and the meaningless buzzing of someone who has zero knowledge about a subject yet continues to debate it with furor. > you claimed that there was simply no scientific evidence for what Damore said. No. I said that what Damore wrote is completely irrelevant, whether true or no…

As before, I have to thank you for clearly exposing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of this position more clearly than I ever could have. Science? Irrelevant. Truth? A distraction. Math? Don't understand, don't want to understand. Logic? Don't bother us with that. What people say/write? Who cares? What people want? I know what they should want. It's a pure power play with no redeeming qualities and nothing to b…

Speaking of the subject of telling women what to want and logic, let me quote you something from the translator's introduction of the 1795 English translation of Leonhard Euler's Letters to a German Princess -- which contains some important advances in the algebraization of logic, and directly influenced Augustus De Morgan -- by the Scottish minister Henry Hunter, D.D.:

> Euler wrote these Letters for the instruction of a young and sensible female, and in the same view that they were written, the are translated, namely, the improvement of the female mind; and object of what importance to the world! I rejoice to think I have lived to see female education conducted on a more liberal and enlarged plan. I am old enough to remember the time when well-born young women, even of the north, could spell their own language but very indifferently, and some hardly read it with common decency... While the boys of the family were conversing with Virgil, perhaps with old Homer himself, the poor girls were condemned to cross-stitch, on a piece of gauze-canvass, and to record their own age at the bottom of a sampler.

> They are now treated as rational beings, and society is already the better for it. And wherefore should the terms female and philosophy seem a ridiculous combination? Wherefore preclude to a woman any source of knowledge to which her capacity, and condition in life, entitle her to apply? It is cruel and ungenerous to expose the frivolity of the sex, after reducing it to the necessity of being silly and frivolous. Cultivate a young woman's understanding, and her person will become, even to herself, only a secondary concern; let her time be filled up in the acquisition of attainable and useful knowledge, and then she will cease to be a burden to herself and to every body about her; make her acquainted with the world of nature, and the world of art will delude her no longer.

So you are deeply mistaken about who it is that tells women what to want and who precludes them from making choices. An 18th century Scottish minister was more enlightened than you on the subject (although no less patronizing, but hey, 18th century) and more knowledgable. I'm guessing that's because he actually bothered to study math, logic, science and history, rather than just throw those words around.

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> Science? Irrelevant.

You can't even understand simple sentences now? Science is not irrelevant. But chemistry is irrelevant to Goldbach's conjecture. A scientist would see that immediately.

The interesting question of nature vs. nature (to which, almost everyone agrees, the answer is "both", but may debate on degree), is simply unrelated to the question of how best to fight sexism.

> Math? Don't understand, don't want to understand.

Dude, my formal education is in mathematics.

> Logic? Don't bother us with that.

Oh boy. I wrote this https://pron.github.io/posts/tlaplus_part2 and this https://pron.github.io/posts/tlaplus_part3, and am currently writing about the history of formal logic, in particular, the development of the relationship between formal logic, algebra and computation, with a focus on Leibniz, Boole, Frege and Babbage.

> What people want? I know what they should want.

Is that that same myth of "feminists tell women what they want" by those who haven't even spent an hour reading what feminism is, and know nothing about the history of gender relations? You really have no clue what you're talking about. You are repeating myths by others who think it is possible to express intelligent opinions about a subject without studying it for even a second. If you want to know what we feminists actually say (rather than parrot newspaper headlines and conservative blogs), why don't you take an hour or two to actually read it?

> It's a pure power play with no redeeming qualities and nothing to back it whatsoever.

It's clear you haven't even read the link I posted (to Wikipedia!) about what power even is. You're like one of those new-age folks who talk about "positive energy".

> The whole thing hinges on the rhetorical trick of redefining words in such a way that the definitions already contain the conclusion you wish to reach

Nope. Again, the same trope by those who believe that's what social scholars and feminists do, without ever having studied a thing about the subject. You are like a Reiki practitioner telling a physicist that her definition of "energy" is redefining words to reach the conclusion she wants to reach.

The truth is that someone who's learned nothing of a subject (and, no, reading blog posts by other equally ignorant people doesn't count) can't intelligently debate it, and, confused and angry, is reduced to attacking the rhetoric of his opponent.

> for which there is no actual evidence

I've provided links to mountains of very actual evidence, which you just refuse to look at. Shutting your eyes doesn't really make the world disappear.

> Well, it's such a cheap trick that it doesn't even pass the "debating 101" silly tricks laugh test, and just because you've constrained yourself to being inside an echo chamber that reinforces these religious beliefs (because that is all they are) unquestioningly doesn't actually give you any authority to speak on the subject.

Dude, you are speaking about something that you know nothing about. You call it religion because, knowing absolutely nothing about the subject, you want it to be that. Why are you afraid of reading research? Ignorance is not a virtue.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#256
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As before, I have to thank you for clearly exposing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of this position more clearly than I ever could have. Science? Irrelevant. Truth? A distraction. Math? Don't understand, don't want to understand. Logic? Don't bother us with that. What people say/write? Who cares? What people want? I know what they should want. It's a pure power play with no redeeming qualities and nothing to b…

Speaking of the subject of telling women what to want and logic, let me quote you something from the translator's introduction of the 1795 English translation of Leonhard Euler's Letters to a German Princess -- which contains some important advances in the algebraization of logic, and directly influenced Augustus De Morgan -- by the Scottish minister Henry Hunter, D.D.: > Euler wrote these Letters for the instruction…

Again: please keep going. I couldn't do half the job you do of discrediting yourself.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#257
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As before, I have to thank you for clearly exposing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of this position more clearly than I ever could have. Science? Irrelevant. Truth? A distraction. Math? Don't understand, don't want to understand. Logic? Don't bother us with that. What people say/write? Who cares? What people want? I know what they should want. It's a pure power play with no redeeming qualities and nothing to b…

Speaking of the subject of telling women what to want and logic, let me quote you something from the translator's introduction of the 1795 English translation of Leonhard Euler's Letters to a German Princess -- which contains some important advances in the algebraization of logic, and directly influenced Augustus De Morgan -- by the Scottish minister Henry Hunter, D.D.: > Euler wrote these Letters for the instruction…

Again: please keep going. I couldn't do half the job you do of discrediting yourself.

Your idea of "science" laughable. Your attempts at drawing analogies is nothing short of desperate. Comically desperate.

If your formal education was math, then you should probably demand your money back.

Anyway, it's been fun.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#258
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of the subject of telling women what to want and logic, let me quote you something from the translator's introduction of the 1795 English translation of Leonhard Euler's Letters to a German Princess -- which contains some important advances in the algebraization of logic, and directly influenced Augustus De Morgan -- by the Scottish minister Henry Hunter, D.D.: > Euler wrote these Letters for the instruction…

Again: please keep going. I couldn't do half the job you do of discrediting yourself. Your idea of "science" laughable. Your attempts at drawing analogies is nothing short of desperate. Comically desperate. If your formal education was math, then you should probably demand your money back. Anyway, it's been fun.

> If your formal education was math, then you should probably demand your money back.

Why? Have you spotted any errors in my lectures? They're usually very well received and I haven't had any complaints. Or perhaps your knowledge of math is as rich as your knowledge of sexism, and you say I'm wrong because that's what you think you're supposed to say in a debate and you really have no clue?

> Your idea of "science" laughable.

Why, what's my idea of science and what's wrong with it?

> Your attempts at drawing analogies is nothing short of desperate. Comically desperate.

For once I agree. Debating a topic with someone who knows absolutely nothing about it yet insists on making bold assertions tends to strain my rhetorical skills. I'm used to debating with other knowledgeable people. People ignorant of a subject usually just start flinging personal insults when they realize they have nothing intelligent to say, and it takes a lot of patience to keep them engaged. Analogies, even bad ones, often do the trick.

> Anyway, it's been fun.

Has it? I find it frustrating to debate something with someone who knows nothing of the subject they're debating.

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