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Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

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Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#31

Post by danblick »

GregBuchholz wrote: post #9
jonmc12 wrote: post #2

Related - "Deliberate Practice and Performance in Music, Games, Sports, Education, and Professions: A Meta-Analysis" - http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Macn... Gives some context for the kinds of fields where deliberate practice improves performance.

Your mention of deliberate practice prompted me reinvestigate the guy who was doing the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to become a golf pro. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, he did get to 10,000 hours, but it doesn't seem like it panned out. Anyone have further sources of information? http://thedanplan.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer)

Since you mentioned both deliberate practice and 10,000 hours: are you familiar with Anders Ericsson's criticism of the 10,000 hours idea? Do you think it's still a concept worth talking about?

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#32

Post by danblick »

drivers99 wrote: post #7
HappyKasper wrote: post #3

"Talent is Overrated" is a great pop exploration of this and similar findings. If you find this interesting, I highly recommend that book as a jumping off point for exploring similar findings.

Another very good book is "Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise" by Anders Ericsson. I'm in the middle of reading it now. As I suspected (since he mentions studies on chess masters), he's part of this article, and in fact he's the author of 2 of the 5 "More to Explore" sources listed at the end of the article.

If I have an intellectual hero, it was Ericsson's post-doc advisor Herb Simon. In "Peak", Ericsson talks about work they did together on the mental representations used by expert chess players. I recently reread some of a lecture Simon gave in 1982 ("Reason In Human Affairs") and it is pretty much golden. Simon is the person responsible for the idea of bounded rationality, but in that talk he also captured ideas about information overload/"quality of information"/"media ecology" that were talked about later by Neil Postman and Nassim Taleb and are especially relevant today although they haven't quite sunk into our culture yet:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TYnI9tbHkCEC&pg=PA93&lpg=P...

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#33

Post by Godel_unicode »

danblick wrote: post #31
GregBuchholz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mention of deliberate practice prompted me reinvestigate the guy who was doing the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to become a golf pro. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, he did get to 10,000 hours, but it doesn't seem like it panned out. Anyone have further sources of information? http://thedanplan.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer)

Since you mentioned both deliberate practice and 10,000 hours: are you familiar with Anders Ericsson's criticism of the 10,000 hours idea? Do you think it's still a concept worth talking about?

I liked Gladwell's response, that 10,000 hours was never intended as the goal it turned into. Rather, it was intended as an order of magnitude. More than that however, it was intended to call attention to the support structure being expert requires. I.E. nobody can get 10,000 hours in on their own.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#34

Post by JamesBarney »

tunesmith wrote: post #11
GregBuchholz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mention of deliberate practice prompted me reinvestigate the guy who was doing the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to become a golf pro. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, he did get to 10,000 hours, but it doesn't seem like it panned out. Anyone have further sources of information? http://thedanplan.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer)

There was a recent HN discussion on it, I believe - I think he got to around 6,000 hours, and was doing really well at golf actually, but then injuries started happening.

Well compared to where he started or the average golf player but still very far away from a anything resembling a pro. Which in general is the scientific consensus. Which is you can get a lot better at things by practicing but being that best is always a matter of talent.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#35

Post by JamesBarney »

danharaj wrote: post #10
jonmc12 wrote: post #2

Related - "Deliberate Practice and Performance in Music, Games, Sports, Education, and Professions: A Meta-Analysis" - http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Macn... Gives some context for the kinds of fields where deliberate practice improves performance.

I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting these numbers. If I look at deliberate practice in musical proficiency amongst the general populace, it'll look like deliberate practice is responsible for almost all of the proficiency. However, if I look at the top 100 musicians in the world, they would have all practiced thousands of hours and I expect practice to have diminishing returns, so it should be responsible for ve…

I think you're right. What separates the average from the good is practice. What separates the good from the great is something different.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#36

Post by kovek »

adrice727 wrote: post #15

One of the books that has had the biggest influence in my life is "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, the child chess prodigy of "Searching for Bobby Fischer" fame. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performa...

What are some key learnings you got from that book?

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#37

Post by roceasta »

JamesBarney wrote: post #35
danharaj wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting these numbers. If I look at deliberate practice in musical proficiency amongst the general populace, it'll look like deliberate practice is responsible for almost all of the proficiency. However, if I look at the top 100 musicians in the world, they would have all practiced thousands of hours and I expect practice to have diminishing returns, so it should be responsible for ve…

I think you're right. What separates the average from the good is practice. What separates the good from the great is something different.

My guess is that 'low-latent inhibition' plus a great memory plus long practice make for mastery.

http://www.lowlatentinhibition.org/what-is-lli/

(And those who force themselves to practice are going to get injuries like repetitive strain which are really a kind of 'inner rebellion' against this forcing.)

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#38

Post by cyberferret »

brianwawok wrote: post #13
tunesmith wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a recent HN discussion on it, I believe - I think he got to around 6,000 hours, and was doing really well at golf actually, but then injuries started happening.

Maybe a slightly different topic.. but from what a lot in the running field think, its all about how fast your body recovers. There are 10,000 amazing marathoners in the world. If you gave them all the same training, they would all be absurdly good, as they got better and better. But 9,990 or so of them would get injured and wash out. So it seems at least in some sports, your limiter is not how genetically gifted you…

Well, when you consider that even Tiger Woods had to take an extended break from golf and completely redesign his swing to prevent permanent shoulder and back problems, it doesn't seem to be a 'genetic' thing per se, but rather a human mechanics limitation.

Some sporting activities are just outside the scope of design of our bodies, it would seem. Much like trying to use a Japanese chef knife to prise open jar lids. It will work up to a point, but not being the core design of the tool, you are guaranteed of breaking the knife at some point, or at least severely damaging it.

It would appear that the human frame is not suited to short, explosive, twisting action of the arms and shoulders while the lower body remains planted.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#39

Post by warent »

kovek wrote: post #36
adrice727 wrote: post #15

One of the books that has had the biggest influence in my life is "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, the child chess prodigy of "Searching for Bobby Fischer" fame. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performa...

What are some key learnings you got from that book?

I heard the audio book version, which was read by the author, and found it to be an excellent piece of literature. Highly recommend it to anybody.

Big takeaways for myself are the differences in what it takes to be "good", "great", and "among the best"

Also, once you become a master at something, then your opponents are more or less equally matched to you, and the final winner comes down to psychology

And, don't stick to one thing for too long if you don't want to. Put it down when you're finished, and begin mastering something else that's more fun / interesting.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#40

Post by IgorPartola »

kristianp wrote: post #30

So what kind of deliberate practice is required to become a highly skilled developer? Not just to know a language and library. Code kata used be a thing years ago.

IMO code katas are a waste of time. Practically speaking, prolific development means getting large chunks of the system done quickly, and the best way to do that is to reuse what others have done. Don't code your CSS from scratch, use Bootstrap or similar. Don't create an auth system, use the one that comes with your framework.

Counterintuitively, don't automate all the things until that automation is sure to pay off. Sometimes manually testing something is just faster, if you only need to test it a few times before the code never changes again (when was the last time you rewrote your password reset flow?)

To get prolific, don't do katas. Katas are the same problem solved in different environments. Do different problems in the environment in which you are productive. That is what will make you better and faster.

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