As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check • Hacker News Board

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#241

Post by fundabulousrIII » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #197

otakucode wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Funny, I also studied CS and philosophy and always though it an execellent combination, most people I talk to find it odd.

Same here. Philosophy and coding much later. All through my twenties Aristotle to Sartre, read every page twice and reduce to comprehensibility in context.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#242

Post by fdafellow » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I believe you are the creator of codebugapp and 3dheap. Both of these links go to nowhere. Just curious what happened.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#243

Post by tucif » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #227

tucif wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you "decide how much partial it is worth" ? Generally the task is not writing code, it is solving a specific problem and non-compiling code is a non-solution, not a partial one.

The same way as you would in every other type of education. If you know what you are doing, it is easy to see how close the student came to getting it right or if they were completely on the wrong track.

couldn't this open the path to approving programming courses without ever handing in compiling code?

What about pseudo code that has the "right logic" but will never compile?

What if I submit python code that works as a c file, should that count?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#244

Post by jasode » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #196

jasode wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles…

That's not his point. No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered organic chemistry already. Just as no one expects a 1st year mechanical engineering student to thoroughly understand rigid body dynamics at age 10. Yea maybe they built an RC plane or did some home experiments, but if anyone is doing these things at a young age they are clearly far above their peers. > Andrew Wiles Example h…

>No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered

Neither ghaff nor I wrote anything about kids "mastering" the STEM topics before college or the first job. Therefore, that higher standard stated by you is a strawman.

I thought ghaff was talking about STEM side projects which is certainly something within the abilities of teenagers without mastery of programming. That's what my reply to him/her was about and how "playing with science" is not unique to programming.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#245

Post by vanadium » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

YCode wrote: post #213

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

A bit off topic, but what skills should front-end web developers be working on right now?

That's too broad a question; you'd need to specify "front-end developers" in the context of their primary focus, first.

Are they game developers? Are they working on enterprise apps? Are they working on lead-gen landing pages for marketing companies? Data visualization? Accessibility-focused? etc...

Front-end is becoming increasingly specialized to a degree.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#246

Post by jmcgough » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #106

romanovcode wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UNI takes around 3-4 years to complete. Bootcamps are like 12-36 weeks. People who graduate from UNI actually know some things.

His point was that thousands of people coming out of bootcamps were saturating the market. My point is I think the market is bigger than that or bootcamps wouldn't exist.

Her point.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#247

Post by vanadium » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

samcheng wrote: post #57

gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Same experience here as a Director of Front-End Development. Worse than not only hiding that they're coming from a bootcamp, they're positioning their exercises as actual "work experience." Granted, this appears to be a few of many bootcamps instructing their classes to do this, but it's definitely something on my radar these days when I'm looking to hire. Also--and this is an egregious oversight in my opinion--many of the portfolios are nothing more than a lightly modified (if that) Wordpress site, using a select few "popular" templates; usually the templates that tell people what level of experience they have with each technology, etc. If you want my eye, you really need to take the time and initiative to build it independently using what you learned.

Agreed, however, that internships and apprenticeships are a great first step coming out of bootcamps, but I don't believe that's the expectation being set when they're admitted. The reason I usually have to pass on bootcamp grads is that, working in a client-focused environment on tight deadlines, time spent training someone up from a narrow view of the industry to what we need is at a very high premium; CS grads coming in as Juniors have anecdotally worked better to that end.

Apprenticing at a product-focused organization with high competency in managing expectations is where I see most bootcamp grads excelling.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#248

Post by dcole2929 » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:26 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #238

ghaff wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few comments on this thread should be required reading for anyone seeking to understand some of the cultural "shortcomings" of the software industry generally and the software industry in Silicon Valley specifically. This idea that not having had an all-consuming for programming since childhood and not maintaining an active Github account for all your side projects means that we don't want your kind is toxic.

>This idea that not having had an all-consuming for programming since childhood and not maintaining an active Github account for all your side projects means that we don't want your kind is toxic. Then you are not aware of the toxic comments from your peers who agree with you. To recap... Group 1: programming-is-just-a-job -- the majority -- The programmers who want to compartmentalize their programming strictly to 4…

You are way off base here. The issue here that group 2 by it's very nature, being passionate, is way more vocal and outspoken about the issue than your group 1 people. It's not a problem that group 2 people want to work with other group 2 people so far in that it doesn't affect group 1 people but that's not how it works. Your group 1 people generally don't care who they work with so long as they can do the job. The problem is that by being far more vocal they affect things like hiring, and who gets promoted which does negatively affect group 1 people. Regardless of the size of the two groups you have described if one is making it harder to advance for the others while not being provably better you're going to have a problem. And that is why you see a lot of people arguing against this mindset, because it IS toxic, and creates a situation wherein only people who have demonstrable interest in programming outside of work can succeed and advance.

Also This mindset eventually can backfire on even your group 2 people because life happens and just because you have the free time, energy and motivation today to work on projects outside of work doesn't mean you will later when you have a family or health issues or any of the myriad other things that can come up.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#249

Post by YCode » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:38 PM UTC

vanadium wrote: post #245

YCode wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit off topic, but what skills should front-end web developers be working on right now?

That's too broad a question; you'd need to specify "front-end developers" in the context of their primary focus, first. Are they game developers? Are they working on enterprise apps? Are they working on lead-gen landing pages for marketing companies? Data visualization? Accessibility-focused? etc... Front-end is becoming increasingly specialized to a degree.

Enterprise apps and data visualization if you prefer, but I was actually curious about the broader answer for web.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#250

Post by dcole2929 » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 5:39 PM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #231

calvinbhai wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all the points you made, except for a part of the third one. This "started coding in middle/high school or college" is a misleading metric since it assumes everyone has equal access and support to learn that way. As some one from India who never had own computer until finishing college (the early 00's), along with no internet or cell phone, I find it hard to accept/respect those people who gloat about ho…

I don't think it's misleading at all. It is unfair, it is an outgrowth of privilege. The issues with diversity, prejudice and bias would be much easier if there weren't cases where something was both unjust and true. Software development is one of those activities where experience is helpful, so those who start earlier are generally better.

Except that's all anecdotal. How do you measure how good someone is at programming? Have there been any studies comparing intro age to programming with future performance? Anecdotally, I know plenty of people who have been programming since elementary school who are terrible compared to someone who learned in college.

And it's not hard to guess why. Just because you've been programming for a long time, doesn't mean you were doing it correctly, or even understood what you were doing.