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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

nytimes.com

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#131

Post by hugs »

puranjay wrote: post #97
marmart wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hack Reactor is touted as really exclusive, but it's a 12 week boot camp. Does anyone seriously think that 3 months or even 6 months is enough to become any sort of passable? A well paced, self taught programmer can surely strive to a higher standard.

I've been working with computers all my life. I made static HTML/CSS/JS websites back in the 1990s before I'd hit puberty. I never learnt how to code though, but I know a lot of technical stuff. So I legitimately thought that "hey, I can learn to code in a few months" Nope. 12 weeks is hilariously less to truly understand coding. You can, at most, mimic the actions of the teacher. It took me quitting, then months of…

It makes me wonder if 12 weeks in a startup accelerator is also not enough time to truly understand how to run a business, either.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#132

Post by Eridrus »

samcheng wrote: post #57
gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Why an internship and not just a super junior developer?

Are you unsure about their skills and need time to evaluate?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#133

Post by arjie »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

Probably because you want to grow as a professional and it's much easier in an environment where our coworkers also want to grow.

If they're content with where they are, there are numerous problems:

• as the business case becomes more complex, they won't adapt

• as you grow and progress, you'll be promoted and they won't. No one wants to work in an atmosphere of resentment.

• you want to learn from your coworkers while they learn from you. If it's one way, you're just slowing yourself down.

I don't want to work at a place filled with guys who want to do the same job for the next ten years. That workplace is going to be commoditised. They'll eventually find themselves on the Internet complaining about H1-Bs and outsourcing and how git is hard to use and technical interviews are evil because they have ten years of experience.

No thanks. This field is privileged in that there are lots of us who like our job a lot. Life's too short to settle for boring coworkers.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#134

Post by dcmininni »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

I care as well, boring factory work makes for lame products. Creative and passionate developers create awesome products.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#135

Post by mikegerwitz »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

Interest usually correlates with the desire to learn and explore on one's own time. If you have a team of interested developers/hackers, then the lack of enthusiasm can drag the team down, both in knowledge and culturally.

This isn't always true, of course. Some developers can have excellent skill and have no interest in programming outside of work. I have a coworker that does virtually nothing outside of work, doesn't keep up with current events outside of what our group discusses, but she is a great programmer and picks up on things very quickly. She shows genuine interest in the work she does at work. She's been with us for nearly nine years. Culturally, she's different than me and another one of our co-workers in a more fundamental sense, but as part of our _team_, she is a perfect fit.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#136

Post by jasode »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

>Who cares?

Many programmers who enjoy programming will have a preference for hiring other programmers who also enjoy it. That doesn't mean they can't hire dispassionate programmers but that still doesn't erase the preference for passionate programmers.

>This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic.

There's definitely a place for dispassionate programmers (as that's probably the majority of programmers who just think of it as a "job"). However, it's wrong to vilify programmers-that-love-their-craft having a preference for other programmers-that-love-their-craft.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#137

Post by calvinbhai »

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I agree with all the points you made, except for a part of the third one.

This "started coding in middle/high school or college" is a misleading metric since it assumes everyone has equal access and support to learn that way.

As some one from India who never had own computer until finishing college (the early 00's), along with no internet or cell phone, I find it hard to accept/respect those people who gloat about how early they started coding.

I always assume there are thousands of kids in the US who were/are not as lucky as the kids who started coding while they were in their diapers.

People/companies in US love to talk about their efforts to fix diversity, but without fixing this attitude of "earlier you learn, better you are" attitude, no amount of throwing money will fix it for the true diversity candidates.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#138

Post by sethrin »

zumu wrote: post #62
samcheng wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

The one I attended, Epicodus, did. It led to a great job at a tiny agency where I actually learned how to build production software. Unfortunately, I do not believe they are able to line up internships for all students anymore.

They haven't been able to guarantee an internship, but they do seem to go to a fair amount of trouble to get everyone one. The last cohort all got internships in the last round, and a couple people from previous cohorts also did as well.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#139

Post by mikegerwitz »

tudelo wrote: post #122
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

The most boring category is interesting... I might fall in to that category. Any advice to be "less boring"?

Do you want to be less "boring"? Do you work well on your team (if you're on one)? Are you valued by your team/company? Are you worried about future job prospects?

If you're happy with your current situation, forcing a change isn't going to suddenly make you interested in those changes. If you have legitimate interests, explore them. If you don't, see what catches your eye here on HN and other places and read up on them, seeing if anything naturally does.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#140

Post by m3rc »

Eridrus wrote: post #132
samcheng wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Why an internship and not just a super junior developer? Are you unsure about their skills and need time to evaluate?

Isn't a "super junior developer" an intern?
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