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Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

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Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#21

Post by abalone »

empath75 wrote: post #8

The level-2 driving that Tesla is pushing seems like a worst case scenario to me. Requiring the driver to be awake and alert while not requiring them to actually do anything for long stretches of time is a recipe for disaster. Neither the driver nor the car manufacturer will have clear responsibility when there is an accident. The driver will blame the system for failing and the manufacturer will blame the driver for…

In fairness to Tesla that is probably why they are pushing for level 4/5 so hard. It's true that if level 2 drives perfectly for a month, yet a alone a year, the human backup system is going to degrade markedly. We're not there yet, but it's coming.

That's got to open up some liability questions. You can bet when people die it will be tested in court. You could make a case that Tesla's going to be liable for many level 2 accidents in the long run anyway, so might as well go all in ASAP.

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#22

Post by [deleted] »

smileysteve wrote: post #10
empath75 wrote: post #8

The level-2 driving that Tesla is pushing seems like a worst case scenario to me. Requiring the driver to be awake and alert while not requiring them to actually do anything for long stretches of time is a recipe for disaster. Neither the driver nor the car manufacturer will have clear responsibility when there is an accident. The driver will blame the system for failing and the manufacturer will blame the driver for…

Unless it works. better than a human. > 90-99% of the time. Mostly, the drivers, insurance, companies and other people on the road have fewer accidents.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#23

Post by pm90 »

alexanderstears wrote: post #13
jballanc wrote: post #11

Honestly, I don't understand why the automobile industry doesn't learn from the airline industry. Airplanes have worked out how to balance autopilot capabilities with the need for pilots to remain engaged and attentive for years. Simply implement a Drive-By-Wire, similar to Airbus' Fly-By-Wire systems. A driver's inputs to the controls would still be required, but the autonomous systems could prevent or limit certain…

There's a norm of competence in airline pilots. We can't say the same for automobile drivers.

Correct. There's also the small detail that while autopilot systems might be a rounding error in the cost of an airplane, it would be a significant financial burden for average joe/jill driver.

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#24

Post by charlesdenault »

jballanc wrote: post #11

Honestly, I don't understand why the automobile industry doesn't learn from the airline industry. Airplanes have worked out how to balance autopilot capabilities with the need for pilots to remain engaged and attentive for years. Simply implement a Drive-By-Wire, similar to Airbus' Fly-By-Wire systems. A driver's inputs to the controls would still be required, but the autonomous systems could prevent or limit certain…

What does "drive-by-wire" achieve other than removing a shaft between the steering wheel and steering rack? Cars already have collision avoidance without full self-driving capabilities.

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#25

Post by bitL »

CupOfJava wrote: post #9
abalone wrote: post #6

> In May 2015, Eric Meadows, then a Tesla engineer, engaged Autopilot on a drive in a Model S from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Cruising along Highway 1, the car jerked left toward oncoming traffic. He yelped and steered back on course, according to his account and a video of the incident. Is this video online?

> Mr. Meadows said he was later dismissed for what he was told were “performance issues.” Tesla declined to comment on Mr. Meadows but noted that the incident happened months before the release of the technology, giving the company plenty of time to work out problems that had been discovered during test drives. We used to treat our test pilots with the highest regard. How low have we fallen?

Public video of a problem during testing is a big no-no. Here in Germany nobody shows issues Porsche test drivers have during >300km/h tests on public highways in the night, only if they cause a major accident.

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#26

Post by tlextrait »

jballanc wrote: post #11

Honestly, I don't understand why the automobile industry doesn't learn from the airline industry. Airplanes have worked out how to balance autopilot capabilities with the need for pilots to remain engaged and attentive for years. Simply implement a Drive-By-Wire, similar to Airbus' Fly-By-Wire systems. A driver's inputs to the controls would still be required, but the autonomous systems could prevent or limit certain…

Airline pilots are professionals, car drivers are just trying to get somewhere... paying attention isn't their full-time job. Also building autopilot software for a near empty 3-dimensional space is much easier than for complex roads of varying shapes, moving obstacles, country regulations and different road markings...

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#27

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

Since we're finally getting some refutations to Self-Driving Hype, let me drop some quotes here:

“I tell adult audiences not to expect it in their lifetimes. And I say the same thing to students”

"Merely dealing with lighting conditions, weather conditions, and traffic conditions is immensely complicated. The software requirements are extremely daunting. Nobody even has the ability to verify and validate the software. I estimate that the challenge of fully automated cars is 10 orders of magnitude more complicated than [fully automated] commercial aviation."

- Steve Shladover, transportation researcher at the University of California, Berkeley

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/the-hurdles-facing-autonom...

"With autonomous cars, you see these videos from Google and Uber showing a car driving around, but people have not taken it past 80 percent. It's one of those problems where it's easy to get to the first 80 percent, but it's incredibly difficult to solve the last 20 percent. If you have a good GPS, nicely marked roads like in California, and nice weather without snow or rain, it's actually not that hard. But guess what? To solve the real problem, for you or me to buy a car that can drive autonomously from point A to point B—it's not even close. There are fundamental problems that need to be solved."

- Herman Herman, director of the Carnegie-Mellon University Robotics Institute

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d7y49y/robotics-l...

"While I enthusiastically support the research, development, and testing of self-driving cars, as human limitations and the propensity for distraction are real threats on the road, I am decidedly less optimistic about what I perceive to be a rush to field systems that are absolutely not ready for widespread deployment, and certainly not ready for humans to be completely taken out of the driver’s seat."

- Mary Cummings, director of the Humans and Autonomy Laboratory at Duke

https://www.commerce.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/c85cb4ef... [pdf]

All quotes pulled from this article (which is really quite good and you should read it in full):

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/10/self-driving-cars-ho...

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#28

Post by [deleted] »

empath75 wrote: post #8

The level-2 driving that Tesla is pushing seems like a worst case scenario to me. Requiring the driver to be awake and alert while not requiring them to actually do anything for long stretches of time is a recipe for disaster. Neither the driver nor the car manufacturer will have clear responsibility when there is an accident. The driver will blame the system for failing and the manufacturer will blame the driver for…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#29

Post by empath75 »

greglindahl wrote: post #18
empath75 wrote: post #8

The level-2 driving that Tesla is pushing seems like a worst case scenario to me. Requiring the driver to be awake and alert while not requiring them to actually do anything for long stretches of time is a recipe for disaster. Neither the driver nor the car manufacturer will have clear responsibility when there is an accident. The driver will blame the system for failing and the manufacturer will blame the driver for…

Other companies are also shipping Level-2 systems. US law says that the driver has responsibility for accidents with a Level 2 system. And Tesla shows constant reminders to drivers.

The law is one thing, but if a system works most of the time, can you really blame a driver for drifting away and doing something else. It's asking a lot for a driver to remain focused on baby sitting a robot. I'd rather just drive.

Re: Tesla’s Push to Build a Self-Driving Car Sparks Dissent Among Its Engineers

#30

Post by pkulak »

arcanus wrote: post #2

Good for the engineers having more ethics than VW, and resigning when they are asked to go farther than the technology allows.

VW engineers broke laws to do what they were asked to do. Tesla engineers are just doing the best that they can and taking longer than marketing would like. If that's a moral equivalence, then I guess we're all VW engineers.
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