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JavaScript is Eating the World

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161–170 of 323 posts

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#161

The more time goes by the more I feel crazy for missing whatever would motivate people to use js for anything more than is strictly necessary. Single threaded server??? I mean come on man, I understand you don't need parallelism for a lot of use cases but even if that fits your situation why javascript? It can't be that hard using a different language. I refuse to believe that.

My day gig is nodejs. I was interested in the problem space, didn't think too much about the stack. How bad could it be, right? Oops. The worst aspect of nodejs is code construction (craftsmanship). Whereas Bill Joy said of Java "Allows you to think both In The Big and In the Small, at the same time." With nodejs, not only is there no Right Way, there's not even a Good Way. You have to mind all the details, plus quit…

> Frankly, I'd rather just write 'C' again. If I have to care about the fiddly bits, I'd rather the language not fight back.

Instead, you'd rather the language be written with conscious land mines in it?

Like, I have a history of dunking on JavaScript. (Though, to be fair: ES6+ is better! It's a lot better. I kinda like it.) But C is unsafe as hell. The list of people who should be writing C is super short.

If you're running into memory links in Node, that points to bad native code or handles that are never getting removed. That's not something easier in C, unless you also like buying yourself double frees that you have to worry about. And backpressure is an architectural problem--it doesn't go away in another language, the ephemera of it just makes the problem surface in a different way.

Maybe what you're writing isn't appropriate for Node. Much of what I write isn't--if I start seeing buffers, I start reaching for another ecosystem, usually the JVM. But that's a far cry from a meaningful criticism of Node for what it's good at. Use what's good where it makes sense. Use other things where they make sense. Revisionism to have C make sense, in 2017, when we have modern, clean C++ and Rust both and Go if you really don't actually care about type systems, makes me really skeptical.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#162
post #124

What they don't say in this panegyric to node is that.. 1. The language (js) is absolutely horrific. 2. node is single threaded and non-blocking/async in I/O for some operations but when blocking requires libuv and gymnastics. 3. It moves too fast for stability. I've encountered huge memory leaks with node at various versions that are terrible to debug. 4. It is designed to the lowest possible specification for devel…

There are languages that I like better than JS. However, JS servers power trillions of dollars of business. People who grasp for reasons to hate on JS are a little like people who get into flame wars about video game franchise rivalries. It's symptomatic of deep unmet emotional needs in that person's life.

> People who grasp for reasons to hate on JS are a little like people who get into flame wars about video game franchise rivalries. It's symptomatic of deep unmet emotional needs in that person's life.

To the extent that that's true, I'd say it's equally true of "here is this list of companies that use my preferred tools" articles like this one.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#163
post #24
post #17

The other day I managed to freeze my computer -- such that I did not even have access to the SysReq key, by stupidly running while (true) { var d = new Date; e.textContent = d.toLocaleString(); } I immediately realised my stupidity, and closed the tab. Shortly after, my mouse froze up, then my keyboard access, and eventually my entire access. Rather than just freezing Xorg as I had initially suspected, it froze my en…

I tried your code snippet on my inferior Windows OS and inferior IE Edge browser. The tab stopped functioning. I opened a few other tabs and continued to work. Eventually IE showed a notice that the tab had stopped responding - I had the option to close the tab or recover the webpage. I clicked 'recover webpage', the page was refreshed and I could continue using it. Truly, Javascript is eating the world. Or perhaps t…

You have me curious. Why would you run IE Edge instead of Chrome?

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My day gig is nodejs. I was interested in the problem space, didn't think too much about the stack. How bad could it be, right? Oops. The worst aspect of nodejs is code construction (craftsmanship). Whereas Bill Joy said of Java "Allows you to think both In The Big and In the Small, at the same time." With nodejs, not only is there no Right Way, there's not even a Good Way. You have to mind all the details, plus quit…

My take on this (I have had the same experience, fwiw) is that it is like the well-known story of bridges falling down due to experienced engineers retiring (Tay Bridge Disaster, Tacoma Narrows Bridge for example). A new generation of folks who actually believe that "Single Threaded is a benefit" arrive on the scene and make a bridge that falls down..

Single-threaded isn't a benefit, but in a world where multi-process isn't a problem, a lot of that is blunted. Granted, for problems that are both compute- and IO-heavy, something like the JVM makes much more sense (so just use it--duh, right?). For throwing bytes over a wire, something like Node is really, really easy and really, really effective. My biggest beef with it is the weak libraries for talking to RDBMSes, that's about it; my API tools of choice remain Ruby/Grape/Grape-Swagger because ROM is so much nicer than anything I've seen in Node, but that's really about it.

Like I said upthread, I used to dunk on JavaScript a lot, but it doesn't make sense nearly as much as it used to, to me.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#165
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Node's success has everything to do with the environment itself in combination with the language. Let's be honest: it is nothing to do with either of those and purely a matter of fashion. In a couple of years at most there will be a new new thing and everything will revert to version 0.1, keeping everyone busy but making no actual progress. Gotta soak up those CPU cycles the hardware people are giving us somehow righ…

After two decades in this industry, I've come to the same conclusion. Developers may use logic in coding, but trend-wise, we're bunch of herds following whatever others are doing. We forget whatever lessons we learned previously whenever something new comes out. It's good to see there are others who see insanity in it as well.

I agree with this. I've seen the same but the core problem is we don't learn from others mistakes: we prefer to rely on our own tool-making skills to demonstrate increased facility while making similar mistakes.

The thing missing in developers that I have decried over and over in this devop/agile movement is that SAs had discipline and an ordered idea and that developers exist to perturb the norm to better effect. The two ideas are not readily reconcilable.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#167
Using the same language on both the front-end and back-end is never a good idea. Java Applets, anyone?

It may sound appealing to management, but the front-end and back-end are different paradigms requiring different skills and language features.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#168
post #139

The fact that JavaScript and the web platform kind of sucks while at the same time being "unavoidable" is why it's so good. It forced a lot of very smart people and a lot of eyes onto the platform to try and find solutions within the extremely restrictive "box" to these problems. How do you solve the API issues when you don't control the platform? How do you solve for perf when things can't be installed? How do you s…

I bet you love pugs, bulldogs, and dalmatians too.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#169
post #139

The fact that JavaScript and the web platform kind of sucks while at the same time being "unavoidable" is why it's so good. It forced a lot of very smart people and a lot of eyes onto the platform to try and find solutions within the extremely restrictive "box" to these problems. How do you solve the API issues when you don't control the platform? How do you solve for perf when things can't be installed? How do you s…

I bet you love pugs, bulldogs, and dalmatians too.

All dogs are good dogs.

Re: JavaScript is Eating the World

#170
post #96

I feel like it's less Javascript that's eating the world and more Node and NPM. It seems as if it's impossible to publish a Javascript project without taking for granted that the developer has, or even wants , a package manager with dependencies, arbitrary toolchain and transpiler along with it. Maybe I'm just a dinosaur for not wanting my "build process" for javascript to be more complicated than including a script…

Like anything new-but-different in tech, it's probably a matter of using it for a while until you see the benefits.

I used to prefer a 0-dependency, no-build format for sites. Nowadays if something doesn't have an npm module it's enough for me to not want to use it for a variety of reasons.

I used to install "dependencies" by copy and paste and was happy, but because I didn't know how it could be better. Despite all of npm's woes (which are many) the concept is sound, and not just for JavaScript.

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