Live data from Hacker News

Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

theguardian.com

161–170 of 296 posts

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#161
Kind of unrelated, but I am extremely disappointed in how much 'giving back to local communities' has been abandoned by modern universities, in favor of their massive administrative payrolls.

What used to be a core tenant of thought, is now a dollar figure. If you live in the state, you get a discount. End of story, obligations fulfilled, full stop.

But it's not a commitment or a central belief. No university will open its facilities to community members. No stage will be available for public performances, no instruments or machines will be made available for inquiring minds, no local organizations will spend more than a few hours on campus for a field trip.

Providing those things would cost money, sure enough. But they used to be part of a university's mission. Some of the older ones still enshrine the ideal in their mottos. That should mean something. It doesn't.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#162
"For instance, before introducing a new procedure they would need to eliminate an old one."

If someone wrote a tech article suggesting that companies should require removal of a line of code for every new line introduced, do you think that article would make it to front page of HN?

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When student loans were able to be discharged in bankruptcy, it was popular to declare bankruptcy on graduation. By the time they saved up enough for a down payment on a house, the bankruptcy will have fallen off the records, so effectively they got a free education (not the ideal mechanism for doing so, better to give people free education upfront). Maybe there is a middle ground where student debt is not easily dis…

Could you find a source with the exact numbers or statistics that made this popular? Its possible it was done, but to say it was popular makes me skeptical.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66 lists it as ~$12k/student for the 2013-14 school year.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When student loans were able to be discharged in bankruptcy, it was popular to declare bankruptcy on graduation. By the time they saved up enough for a down payment on a house, the bankruptcy will have fallen off the records, so effectively they got a free education (not the ideal mechanism for doing so, better to give people free education upfront). Maybe there is a middle ground where student debt is not easily dis…

Really? Source?

Source for the bankruptcy: http://archive.gao.gov/f1102a/101903.pdf

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#165
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at how much gets taken out of a grant for "overhead," too! Stunning.

For those that are unfamiliar, when a faculty member wins a grant the university takes 50%+ for themselves. Right off the top. So if you are awarded a grant for $100k from DARPA, NIH or some other granting organization you'll only end up having ~$47k to spend. The rest goes straight to the pocket of the university.

This is actually untrue. People just think that because they don't understand how the overhead % works. 100% overhead would mean the university taking 50%. But all overheads are <= 65%, so no university takes more than half. It's about 1/3 in the top tier universities.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#166

Kind of unrelated, but I am extremely disappointed in how much 'giving back to local communities' has been abandoned by modern universities, in favor of their massive administrative payrolls. What used to be a core tenant of thought, is now a dollar figure. If you live in the state, you get a discount. End of story, obligations fulfilled, full stop. But it's not a commitment or a central belief. No university will op…

Do you have evidence of this? I'm just curious because I see all sorts of university events open to the public. Both in public and private universities. There's musical performances, special events (like physics students hosting solar eclipse day and providing hundreds of glasses to the public), theater performances, sporting events (for a low cost), donations to local charities and events, etc.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#167
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a tenure-track professor, obviously I'm biased, but tenure doesn't mean you don't have to work. Professors still have to pull their weight around the university and department. If nobody takes their classes or they aren't bringing in research dollars, that would be a problem that would be brought up in their performance appraisals. The vast majority of tenured professors make about 1/2 to 1/4 of what their value i…

What impacts can performance appraisals have on a tenured professor? Is it possible to be fired or have your salary severely cut simply from poor performance?

As a tenured professor I can say something about that.

The short answer is, I don't really know the limits and don't want to know.

They can basically freeze your salary and not increase it, which over time can amount to a lot. I have heard of salary cuts in rumor, but nothing firm. Basically they can make your life a complete living hell, which is more unpleasant than it sounds.

At my university, I've noticed a trend where they have been increasing the number of bullshit rules; it seems like what they're doing is increasing the reasons they can have for firing people, in a kind of HR mindset.

Importantly, though, at my department, I can't think of anyone who's just a slacker. They're just not there. The weird thing is that some people who have reliably brought in grant money I think do poor actual research--they are funded because the areas sound important, much like terrorism or threats to children are always a good way of sidestepping political criticism. Conversely, some who have been poor at grant funding have been insanely cited. And then there are people who do neither, but who are powerhouse teachers.

To be honest, what constitutes "poor performance" is at the crux of a lot of issues. Increasingly, this means one thing, which is bringing in grants so universities can siphon off money in the form of "indirect costs."

However, with concerns about replicability in science, is that really the right goal? I mean, if you need the money to fund your research, fine, but what if you don't? Should you still be obligated to search for money you don't need and the agencies know you don't need, just so universities can take a cut?

The whole thing is a mess. As someone wanting out of academics but without a clear route to that, I've tried to think honestly about this, and I think getting rid of tenure would only make things worse. To some extent, med schools have gotten rid of tenure (if in practice if not on paper), and here we are, with the replicability crisis. The whole point of tenure is to avoid problems like the replication crisis. Academic politics is cutthroat, and tenure is about the only thing that makes the whole thing worth it. It's not even a risk-aversion issue, it just seems like a common-sense thing if you're in the middle of it. The only thing I can think of that's comparable is SCOTUS--I've realized that my problem with that isn't the lifetime appointments that protect from political crap somewhat, it's the fact that the bar for appointment isn't high enough.

Really, I'm not feeling the prestige of being a professor, even though I'm at a large research university. To me, it feels like I'm a vilified class, sort of like a lawyer.

One thing that I am puzzled by as a professor is how this idea came about that the value of a university education is in the classroom. To me, this makes no sense. If I were to give an incoming student advice about how to make the most of their education, I would say: get involved with research. Find faculty you can get to know and work one-on-one with. That's what you are getting out of it.

To be honest, I'd love to do MOOCs and whatnot, as it makes a lot of sense to me, more sense than a lecture course. But in the end, I think it's the small, one-on-one attention that's really where the heart of a university education should be.

I have a lot to say about this all, but it's difficult to put in words. People tend to oversimplify a lot of things about problems in academics, but the near future seems very bleak to me in a number of areas--not just academics but also business, tech, health care--as power becomes increasingly concentrated in an administrative elite. Increasingly I feel treated as a widget-maker, like administration expects everyone to conform to some dean's stereotyped wet dream of what a tenured STEM professor should look like.

My rough recommendations for solving the academic crisis, at least in the US:

* states, or someone, starts funding universities again at pre-1990s levels (or be at peace with no public unis anymore) * administration serves faculty, not the other way around * federal grants eliminate indirect costs (like a lot of private grants), or at least don't allow facility costs that aren't explicitly justified (to the GOP's credit, they proposed that and there was massive pushback, which was unfortunate) * solve problems with the health care system * businesses take responsibility for vetting and training employees--don't push that responsibility onto universities, and recognize people can grow * students need to see university educations as something they participate in, not consume.

My inkling is that academic problems aren't really so different from problems in many other areas. It's the same old-same old: they're becoming increasingly politicized, increasingly hierarchically structured with an administrative elite controlling everyone else, people don't want to pay for anything because they themselves don't have the money, etc. etc. etc.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the view of people who have not really looked at university budgets. "experiences" are cheap compared to headcount. Buildings and experiences are mainly funded by outside donation specifically for the experience or building. People do not often donate to "expand salaries and headcount for faculty and administrators". The result is that students pay for headcount and donors pay for experiences. It isn't just a…

On the research point, why are research and teaching commingled? Both are important, but it seems that they require very different skillsets. Would we be better off filling universities primarily with people who love teaching, and are great at it, and having some other kind of institution (or some separate division of universities) do the research? Is this heresy?

Anecdotally, I've had only one professor who excelled in conducting research and teaching concurrently. The rest either disliked teaching or were completely enthralled in their research, and we as students suffered.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#169

I work in the administration for a top public US research University. The increase in size of University administration and bureaucracy is due to a number of factors. One is certainly unnecessary employment and over-employment. Not only at high levels, with VP's, Assistant VP's, Assistant Vice VP's, Chancellors, Vice Chancellor's, Executive VP's, Directors of XYZ, etc, but also at low levels where the work done by 3…

Having also worked in higher ed for quite a long time (I've been out since 2004) I always quipped that young people really just want "lifestyle camps" or "lifestyle towns" where they can have the experience they want without all the pesky classes and studying getting in the way. Go there for a couple years, party down, then maybe move on in life. It would save a lot of people a lot of hardship and pain.

When I look back at my undergrad years, my favorite time was the week of no classes which was intended to give students time to study for finals, but was actually largely used to socialize.

Re: Universities are broke – let’s cut the pointless admin and get back to teaching

#170
I agree. We could start by dropping Politcal Correctness, safe spaces, etc and embrace Free speech, with the assumption that truth will always win in the long term (ex: heliocentrism). This means the painful process of letting the opposition speak, which is lost on the current generation.
Post reply on HN