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Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

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Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#131

Post by rndgermandude »

smsm42 wrote: post #99
peoplewindow wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

Please tell me that nodejs didn't just have a vote on removing a member because the said member shared an article which was critical of speech codes and implied CoCs can have downsides. And 40% voted for removal. Please tell me it was something more serious and controversial. Because if that's what we arrived at - that the mere implication that you might not be 100% devoted to the orthodoxy, that you might be conside…

As I understand it, it was 20% (2 out of 10) vote for removal, 20% (2 out of 10) abstained and 60% (6 out of 10) voted against removal, which is a little less bad.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#132

Post by fred_is_fred »

peoplewindow wrote: post #85
ebola1717 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, this article comes from another TSC member, meaning one of his peers. If 4 of your 12 peers resign because you weren't removed, there is almost certainly some merit to these complaints.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

I believe MRA is a "mens rights activist".

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#133

Post by smsm42 »

rndgermandude wrote: post #131
smsm42 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please tell me that nodejs didn't just have a vote on removing a member because the said member shared an article which was critical of speech codes and implied CoCs can have downsides. And 40% voted for removal. Please tell me it was something more serious and controversial. Because if that's what we arrived at - that the mere implication that you might not be 100% devoted to the orthodoxy, that you might be conside…

As I understand it, it was 20% (2 out of 10) vote for removal, 20% (2 out of 10) abstained and 60% (6 out of 10) voted against removal, which is a little less bad.

I heard there were four, but maybe I was wrong. I am still kind of surprised there even was a vote on this. The difference between harassing people and saying "CoC may also have some downsides" should be kinda obvious. Sadly, it's not.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#134

Post by [deleted] »

peoplewindow wrote: post #85
ebola1717 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, this article comes from another TSC member, meaning one of his peers. If 4 of your 12 peers resign because you weren't removed, there is almost certainly some merit to these complaints.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

[deleted]

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#135

Post by graspee »

fixermark wrote: post #79
strictnein wrote: post #34

The unredacted details still feel like they're missing something: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co... "...Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC/TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring" "Rod did not moderate himself when asked by another foundatio…

Of everything in there, this one is probably the most problematic. """ His tweeting of screen captures of immature responses suggests pleasure at having upset members of the JavaScript community and others. As a perceived leader, such behavior reflects poorly on the project. https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 """

It's not problematic at all. As the creator of the Contributor Covenant says, "The CC applies to project spaces, not twitter".

http://i.imgur.com/73SK9Yc.png

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#136

Post by angersock »

smsm42 wrote: post #99
peoplewindow wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

Please tell me that nodejs didn't just have a vote on removing a member because the said member shared an article which was critical of speech codes and implied CoCs can have downsides. And 40% voted for removal. Please tell me it was something more serious and controversial. Because if that's what we arrived at - that the mere implication that you might not be 100% devoted to the orthodoxy, that you might be conside…

> This is scary as hell.

This is the future we chose. Sorry. :(

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#137

Post by geeky_time »

syshum wrote: post #101
cjslep wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the entire point of a Code of Conduct to restrict speech and behavior? Those who are Free-Speech extremists should be staying away from CoCs anyway.

How can one be a "Free Speech Extremist" You either support Free Speech or you do not. If you ever say something like "I support free speech but not hate speech" or "I support free speech but..." then you are not a supporter of free speech.

Free Speech (with caps) is not the same as being able to say whatever you want wherever you want with social and cultural impunity.

The free speech clause of the 1st amendment means that the government won't enact laws that punish someone for saying rude, hateful, bigoted, or inflammatory things. This does not preclude a person's family, school, workplace, business, or any other group they're a part of from punishing or excluding them for breaking rules about behavior that is appropriate to the group.

The difference is that those are rules, not laws. You can go to jail for breaking laws. You won't go to jail for breaking rules, but there can certainly be other consequences. People have to choose whether it is worth following the rules to be a part of the group that made them. One can always quit and find a new group. Sadly, the same cannot usually be said for one's government.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#138

Post by geeky_time »

smsm42 wrote: post #104
ebola1717 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think you're missing? He undermined the processes he's meant to support, which sends a mixed message about the org's commitment to its Code of Conduct, and in fact his behavior undermined its authority. In addition, he explicitly violated some policies. Out of his 13 peers (other Node TSC members), 4 felt strongly enough about this that they have resigned.

An idea that if an organization has a CoC all the members should be unquestioning fanatical supporters of it and can never even consider discussing the costs vs benefits of it or reevaluating the premises sounds weird and rather harmful for a healthy atmosphere. Since when the doubt is a thoughtcrime in tech community, that must result in immediate expulsion? Since when have we become so stuffy and drunk on "authorit…

I think you may be misunderstanding the nature of the grievances, here. I wasn't there, but having dug around a little bit, I don't believe that the people lodging the complaints are sitting around looking for Code of Conduct violations of which they can accuse people.

It is one thing to have technical disagreements when working with a team of other humans. These debates can reveal some very strong opinions, but if the discussion stays about the tech, it generally isn't a problem for the team to move on, and certainly would not violate any Code of Conduct that I've ever read.

It is an entirely different situation when several people seem to have been made to feel uncomfortable, excluded, marginalized, belittled, mocked, or shamed. Yes, some people have very thin skins and are easily offended, but is it likely that 4 people in this group were over-reacting, and that ultimately drove them to the point of resignation? Or is it more likely that there was a pattern of behavior from @rvagg that violated (or perhaps just consistently pushed the boundaries of) the agreed-upon norms of the group, as laid out in the Code of Conduct?

I think his openly dismissive attitude about the Code of Conduct probably stemmed from him being unwilling or unable to follow it, and regularly being at odds with the rules. If it didn't bother him, why would he question it? More importantly, if the group doesn't want to honor the Code of Conduct they've established, why didn't they just change it to allow @rvagg to operate without feeling like he was at odds with the rules?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#139

Post by geeky_time »

syshum wrote: post #10
mattnewton wrote: post #2

I missed all this, what did rvagg do? Why are some people upset enough to try to vote him off the island, and leave when it didn't happen?

Seems he committed the cardinal sin of expressing support for Free Speech and questioning some aspects of Codes of Conduct. One can not even question the codes of conduct, they are written on stone and are beyond criticism and questioning...

I wasn't there, but I don't think they were requesting his resignation based on his questioning of the Code of Conduct. From the sound of things, they had called him on several CoC violations over an extended period of time. The community response was to let him off with a warning, maybe? Not sure what actions were taken to address people's concerns.

@rvagg's response was to openly mock the idea of a Code of Conduct. So then not only was he potentially getting away with violating the CoC, he was publicly mocking the whole system with impunity.

"Free Speech" grants us (American Citizens) the right to say (mostly) whatever we want without fear of breaking the law. No one is accusing him of breaking the law. No one is trampling anyone's freedom of speech.

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