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Let Consumers Sue Companies

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Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#261
post #225
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say "Conservatives tend to reject both approaches as an impingement on business freedoms."? I really do want to know what you are basing your beliefs about Conservatives on. I, and the circles I've been in, would not necessarily do that. We would reject regulations that are too strict (which, lately, most environmental regulations have been). We would also reject the Federal Government being involved, sinc…

Well this is pretty much exactly what I meant when I said our political discourse is "childishly uninformed." You claim that environmental remedies should be worked out between factories and local residents. Disregarding the absurd implication that factories are the only or even the most important polluters, the only mechanism by which local residents can directly negotiate enforceable restrictions on factories is li…

I was being specific to the example situation you presented. You specifically mentioned factories, so that's what I used in my answer.

Litigation is not the only option. A group of people can get together and go talk to the owners of the factory directly. No need for lawyers at all. Just individuals working together to come to an agreement.

It's only when that fails that Government should get involved. Either by passing a local law that enacts proper regulation, or via litigation if that's the best option. I seriously doubt there's a one size fits all solution...

I did address issues that cross state borders. Again, I only used the environment related example because you did so first.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of government injury is often invisible. Here is a specific example, and likely 3 of the 6 examples I listed have above are similar factually (anti-kickback): 1. Russians began opening pharmacies in Russian neighborhoods throughout the UD (yes, Russian neighborhoods are a thing); 2. The pharmacies would deliver drugs to the medicare patients and in those deliveries included certain gifts anything from Russia…

Sure. But the intention is to protect the Medicare and Medicaid programs. And hey, IANAL.

Of course the intent of these laws are to protect Medicare, but you didn't articulate how Medicare was harmed in my real life example.

Whether or not the Pharmacy put extra gifts in with the Rx delivery Medicare was not effected. Moreover, the gift has no bearing on Medicare, patients, physicians or reimbursements.

To highlight the distinction, say a Dr. prescribed a drug to be filled at the pharmacy, and the patient never actually got it filled, but the pharmacy filed the claim for the Rx with Medicare anyway to get paid for the drug as if the patient had gotten it filled, the harm to the Government is obvious, they just paid a claim for a drug that was never actually dispensed. In fact, when that actually happens, the pharmacy usually double dips, and rips the label off the unfilled drug, sells it to another patient and still gets paid on the claim as if the original Medicare patient picked it up. Anyway sometimes the harm is obvious and sometimes its invisible, but it all illegal.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You sue when the other person is uninsured. That's why insurance matters. Insurance is legally required to drive in most states (New York is one of them). Well, or you don't. See, that was the point. Being insured or not is not relevant, it is relevant for the other party but seeing an accident as an avenue to a payday is a fairly uniquely American thing. So whether you claim from the other party or from the insura…

> Insurance is mandatory, hence the 'filling out a form'. What's the result if the other driver is driving without insurance, despite it being mandatory? Or if they don't carry enough insurance to cover the costs of the accident (or is this not a problem)? There are a total of 3 states that don't require insurance, and there are another 2 that have laughably low minimum coverage requirements. It's still relatively co…

> What's the result if the other driver is driving without insurance, despite it being mandatory?

In some countries there are pools that you can tap into if the other party is not insured.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumer satisfaction indices are published with some regularity, the United States is usually somewhere between the 20th and the 30th position of such rankings. Now obviously the United States is huge and there is huge diversity between the various demographics and localities but it is beyond dispute that consumers in Europe are doing fine (and that consumers in the United States are not doing much worse on average)…

Does anyone know of a resource that aggregates the EU stats to compare US be the EU?

Eurostat ? ("Eurostat is the statistical office of the European Union situated in Luxembourg. Its mission is to provide high quality statistics for Europe").

They have stats for anything and everything, most renewed annually, in all 3 working language, in complete free access, and provide aggregate for EU17 and EU28.

Here is a link to their "browse stats by theme" page: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/data/browse-statistics-by-theme

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#266
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn it around and it's just a matter of not allowing anyone else to infringe on your rights to that extent; to go back to his example maybe you do have the right to sign yourself away to slavery, but nobody has the right to take up that contract.

Everyone uses the "signing yourself into slavery" example, but it's not clear what that means. If you consent to it, then it's not slavery (you can make arguments about "wage slavery," but I think that's a different issue). If you sign a contract to perform labor for some period of time, then change your mind later, the contract likely has some terms for breaking the contract early, and if it doesn't, it's probably n…

That's nothing like slavery then.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this Adam Ruins Everything episode on the McDonald's Coffee Lawsuit & Tort reform really interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9DXSCpcz9E if you'd like to jump to where they talk about frivolous lawsuits it starts here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9DXSCpcz9E#t=03m15s Some notes: - Tort reform is largely a concept pushed by big business trying to avoid getting sued when they do wrong. - The number…

> The lady burned by the McDonalds coffee was really hurt, and was only one of many many people burned by McDonalds coffee, who refused to serve it less hot. What the documentary left out, was that it happened over a 10 year period where 700 out of 171 BILLION customers got burned from mcdonald's coffee. This is statistically nothing. > Tort reform is largely a concept pushed by big business trying to avoid getting s…

>171 BILLION

Uh...there are <8 billion people on the planet; where did that number come from?

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#268
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this is pretty much exactly what I meant when I said our political discourse is "childishly uninformed." You claim that environmental remedies should be worked out between factories and local residents. Disregarding the absurd implication that factories are the only or even the most important polluters, the only mechanism by which local residents can directly negotiate enforceable restrictions on factories is li…

Interesting response with lots of "You ..." in there. I'm also a conservative minded person (leaning more libertarian) and thought I would add a response. First off, the conservative/libertarian discourse is not "childish" or "uninformed." Libertarian thought has been in development for centuries beginning with classical liberalism. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#History ] Second, the commentor clearl…

>First off, the conservative/libertarian discourse is not "childish" or "uninformed." Libertarian thought has been in development for centuries beginning with classical liberalism.

The length of time that a school of philosophy has been around does not relate whatsoever to how people talk about it today. See, e.g., flat earthers.

>Third, apparently you are not very familiar with environmental regulation.

I used to practice environmental law.

> Environmental regulations need not cross state boundaries (we can regulate water and air from entities in in our own states).

That would make sense if the air and the water themselves did not cross state boundaries. Turns out they do. Speaking of the classical liberalism you are so fond of, you should really check out this crazy new theory called "the tragedy of the commons."

This is a childishly uninformed discussion because you do not (and I am sure cannot without googling) refer to any specific regulations. Would you care to discuss the Clean Water Act and how you think it is too strict? Do you take issue with the "surface water connection" jurisdictional test for defining the navigable waters of the United States and thus the geographic limits of the CWA? Do you think the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System defines "impaired waters" too broadly? Are NPDES Total Daily Maximum Loads set unreasonably low? Do you think joint Army Corps of Engineers and EPA jurisdiction over impaired waters leads to excessive enforcement bureaucracy? These are not things I just googled but rather regulations I have helped draft, administer, enforce, and even challenge. I am happy to debate the finer points and would be thrilled to see that debate on a national level.

But the debate on the national level is instead childishly uninformed because conservatives argue in nebulous generalities, using catch phrases and talking points, but do not engage with the specifics of the policies in question. The vagueness of their claims allows them to avoid rigorous standards of proof or argumentation.

Statements like "Unfortunately, we do not have that capability to balance the locality's needs and the environment's." This is simply a nonsense talking point, which wholly disregards the non-local nature of the environment. Localities don't get to choose to prioritize their needs over the environment's because they share their environment with other localities. So those localities get together and decide as a group how to regulate the environment via this fancy new invention called the federal government.

What precisely do you even mean? The ability for localities to decide they want more pollutants discharged into the environment? What needs are not being respected? Their need to have lower costs for businesses in order to keep jobs? Which they can only have at the expense of their neighbors, by emitting pollutants into the environment which then flow into their neighbors' jurisdictions and by taking jobs from neighbors who choose not to poison their own and others' land, water, and air?

It's also nonsense because it's factually untrue in many cases. Take NPDES. States enforce it, with the exception of four direct implementation states that have elected to allow the federal EPA to enforce it. The federal EPA simply sets standards and partially funds enforcement via block grants.

Worst of all, your argument does not contribute anything useful to the discussion. "There's too much federal regulation of the environment and more needs to be done at the local level." Ok, fine, let's unpack that statement and see where the argument takes us and why it is so damaging to our national discourse. What federal regulations are excessive and need to be moved to the local level? Your answer will likely be the result of something you recently googled, but let's assume you make a legitimate, well-informed point and identify one federal regulation that should be moved to the local level. I will then point out another ten regulations that clearly need to remain at the federal level. Assuming we then go through every federal regulation on the environment and make this assessment, we are left with a list of some regulations that need to be changed and some that don't. Great. So we then reform the EPA and localities start regulating more efficiently etc. etc. That would be a really awesome result of a national political debate.

This has not happened nationally because we are not having a discussion with that specificity. Conservatives simply argue that the EPA is bad and has to go. Even if they admit in argument that theoretically some regulations should be federal, the practical manifestation of their ideology is a concerted effort to abolish the EPA. See, e.g., Scott Pruitt's current activities.

And that's the real problem with your vague talking points. They drive poisonous, poorly thought out policy-making which does not even reflect your own stated positions. This is why we have Trump, the master of spewing vague generalities. A man wholly unprepared to be president, who is incapable of engaging with policy details on even the most superficial levels, resulting in absurdly awful legislative proposals and a complete absence of legislative progress.

Please, point to specific regulations or policies that you think unreasonably burden localities. That would be a productive contribution to the national debate about environmental regulation. Perhaps the regulation needs to be revised, or perhaps there is a justification you are not considering. Either way, the conversation is worth having. Regurgitating talking points doesn't.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Where the class members are individual consumers, litigation ends up being lawyer-driven. Cases settle for pennies on the dollar of potential damages, and end up serving neither to compensate consumers nor really to deter illegal conduct. You're completely misunderstanding the purpose of class actions, and are using an oft-repeated error. The article itself explains the value of class actions. Class actions are an i…

"Class actions are an ideal instrument for redress of harm where the harm to any individual is small, but the harm is widespread, meaning that a company is cheating or hurting many people but it's not worth any one individual's effort or expense to sue them." Actually, you are misunderstanding the purpose of class actions. You may see it as s some ideal, but it's not why they were created. They were created to simpli…

How about a citation instead of the somewhat snarky suggestion to "take a gander at the history of the federal rules"? I am not an expert here, but Wikipedia suggests that the history of grouping similar cases for efficient resolution by the courts is not actually the basis for the modern American class action--it was pushed by those who thought it would be a good vehicle for new cases that wouldn't have been viable previously (as the GP suggested):

The Advisory Committee that drafted the new Rule 23 in the mid-1960s was influenced by two major developments. First was the suggestion of Harry Kalven, Jr. and Maurice Rosenfield in 1941 that class action litigation by individual shareholders on behalf of all shareholders of a company could effectively supplement direct government regulation of securities markets and other similar markets. The second development was the rise of the civil rights movement, environmentalism and consumerism. The groups behind these movements, as well as many others in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, all turned to class actions as a means for achieving their goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action

Also, it's somewhat misleading to cite to the history of the class action and ignore current justifications. This is like arguing that U.S. democracy is bad because it was originally a method for a small group of wealthy landowners to control the country, while ignoring the fact that currently anyone can vote. The history of class actions in England, although interesting, does not make the GP comment incorrect. If the modern purpose is only to simplify similar cases, we already have coordination and consolidation.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#270
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn it around and it's just a matter of not allowing anyone else to infringe on your rights to that extent; to go back to his example maybe you do have the right to sign yourself away to slavery, but nobody has the right to take up that contract.

Everyone uses the "signing yourself into slavery" example, but it's not clear what that means. If you consent to it, then it's not slavery (you can make arguments about "wage slavery," but I think that's a different issue). If you sign a contract to perform labor for some period of time, then change your mind later, the contract likely has some terms for breaking the contract early, and if it doesn't, it's probably n…

Not being allowed to quit is pretty much the defining aspect of slavery.
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