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The Icewind Dale Problem

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Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#31

Post by dri_ft »

chokma wrote: post #22
dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

In Angband (ascii rogue-like), there was an auto-roller to solve this problem. So char generation was also a bit of "what are my chances to get a reasonable character with two or three really good attributes in the time I am willing to wait?"

That sorta makes sense--it's kind of the logical conclusion of the situation in the Bioware games--But I also feel like it exposes how bad an idea the whole thing is.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#32

Post by drchickensalad »

beloch wrote: post #11
Negative1 wrote: post #4

I was hoping this was going to talk about the problem that Beamdog ran into 'enhancing' Icewind Dale 2. They can't find the source code and doing the reverse engineering to make improvements was deemed too costly; http://www.pcgamer.com/icewind-dale-2-cant-be-enhanced-becau... As far as this article; not my cup of tea but the author seems to have put a lot of time into it. If you like data science, dive on in.

I was a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate games back in the day, but never got around to playing the IWD series, which were based on Bioware's infinity engine. I played the enhanced version of IWD1 not too long ago and, of course, had to play IWD2 to satisfy my completionist OCD, even though that meant a little bit more fiddling to get it to work properly. Verdict: Go play a newer RPG like Pillars of Eternity instead. Wh…

I also recommend Divinity: Original Sin

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#33

Post by jrs95 »

dri_ft wrote: post #29
ggggtez wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really a fair defence, because D&D also had rules for point buy (limited points to add to stats). They just choose not to use it. Planescape, from the same era, used point buy instead of random rolls. (Which fixes the pointless rerolling until you get stats you want, but not the part about making important decisions before the game starts)

Yeah, Planescape pretty much got it right, as far as I'm concerned.

Planescape effectively changed the impact of all of those stats on the game as well though. Personally I preferred Baldurs Gate.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#34

Post by jrs95 »

wccrawford wrote: post #27

>Let's turn this system into a game. You are allowed to reroll, but everytime you do the score you get will get subtracted by one. What would be the optimal stopping strategy? If it wasn't just a thought-exercise, the answer would be: Quit the game and start over until you get a perfect roll the first time. Seriously. Games are supposed to be fun, not painful. While it might be a fun thought exercise, it's incredibly…

If you're trying to exploit the game, you should be having less fun. I played Baldur's Gate, and there were all sorts of things you could do to be stronger than you ought to be. Even without the rolling, you could level up a character several times and then restart the game with that character. I didn't do that specifically because I wanted to enjoy the game.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#35

Post by mathgeek »

dri_ft wrote: post #30
sgtnasty wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they were trying to replicate the tabletop experience. Now imaging replicating the classic Traveller RPG, where you had a decent chance of your character dying during generation. I think that any computer RPG with D&D like stats needs to have point buy by default and only use a random generation as an option for tabletop like simulation.

Yeah, I think it's inappropriate/thoughtless use of an idiom that might have made sense in tabletop games but doesn't really make much sense on a PC.

Agreed. One factor to remember though is that any deviation by DnD-based CRPG's from the original ruleset risked getting dinged in reviews for being "not enough like the original that we know and love... true DnD players should look elsewhere for their fix."

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#36

Post by [deleted] »

sgtnasty wrote: post #28
dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

I think they were trying to replicate the tabletop experience. Now imaging replicating the classic Traveller RPG, where you had a decent chance of your character dying during generation. I think that any computer RPG with D&D like stats needs to have point buy by default and only use a random generation as an option for tabletop like simulation.

[deleted]

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#37

Post by moron4hire »

dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

I'm trying to remember off the top of my head how Skyrim did it. During the character creation, I don't remember doing a class assignment, certainly not explicitly like Morrowind or Oblivion. I think everyone just started at the same base character level, and your "class" fell out of your behavior over the course of the game. Do more destruction magic, earn more magic power.

Regardless, if it wasn't Skyrim, that seems like a better system all around. Leave the character a blank slate, start every stat at 0, and the character has to be molded through the course of the game.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#38

Post by jghn »

dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

This reminded me of how I spent multiple nights re-rolling my party on my Mac port for Wizardry I. I eventually hit a point total that allowed me to start one character as a ninja, which apparently must have been a bug because that was supposed to be impossible.

My cheesiness knew no bounds however. At some point I acquired a shuriken, which would increase your total HP by 1 every time you equipped it. I did the righteous thing and spent a few more nights unequipping and equipping it, which left me with some outrageously high HP.

Feeling that even this munchkin level insanity wasn't enough I fiddled around with the save game and figured out how to clone my character. Finally my party had a front line of 3 ninjas with unassailably high HP totals. Finally, Werdna was mine.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#39

Post by baldfat »

Titan Quest - Best Abilities and Stats System. Should have taken over the whole genre system wise. You all start vanilla and when you use an ability it ads xp to that ability. Melee then attack as a melee, or ranged pick up the bow and shoot. If its magic learn to pull off the right skills. It was easiest to go melee at first and magic was more difficult but then it switched mid game.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#40

Post by bbctol »

moron4hire wrote: post #37
dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

I'm trying to remember off the top of my head how Skyrim did it. During the character creation, I don't remember doing a class assignment, certainly not explicitly like Morrowind or Oblivion. I think everyone just started at the same base character level, and your "class" fell out of your behavior over the course of the game. Do more destruction magic, earn more magic power. Regardless, if it wasn't Skyrim, that seem…

Yeah, Skyrim was a major break from the earlier Elder Scrolls games by abandoning pre-made classes. It's probably a good idea in many ways, but you run into a similar problem if you want to level up in skills that aren't actually that much fun (which is basically anything except fighting.) If you want to be a master blacksmith, instead of spending time re-reolling, you spend it... crafting hundreds of iron daggers.
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