Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Icewind Dale Problem

koaning.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 75 posts

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#21

Post by honestoHeminway »

Roleplaying in my eyes suffered from this arbitrary stats rolling. It could have greatly gained, if for every usefull exp on level up - your character would have to take on some psychological malus. +1 on Dexterity? Congratulations, you are now a cleptomanic. +2 on Intelligence? Obsessive compulsive mage. +1 Strength. Great Scotts, youre an alcoholic. +2 Wisdom? Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom.

It would have got the game so much more interesting. People who would have to play actual characters, instead of walking, golden statues.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#22

Post by chokma »

dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

In Angband (ascii rogue-like), there was an auto-roller to solve this problem. So char generation was also a bit of "what are my chances to get a reasonable character with two or three really good attributes in the time I am willing to wait?"

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#23

Post by ggggtez »

dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

I don't think there's any argument it's bad game design. It's inherited from D&Ds history as evolving from the war game genre.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#24

Post by ggggtez »

dozzie wrote: post #16
dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

Note that it's not because the game was designed this way, but because the Dungeons and Dragons system was designed this way. It's not optimized for first-time and impatient computer players, but for roleplayers.

It's not really a fair defence, because D&D also had rules for point buy (limited points to add to stats). They just choose not to use it. Planescape, from the same era, used point buy instead of random rolls. (Which fixes the pointless rerolling until you get stats you want, but not the part about making important decisions before the game starts)

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#25

Post by chokma »

honestoHeminway wrote: post #21

Roleplaying in my eyes suffered from this arbitrary stats rolling. It could have greatly gained, if for every usefull exp on level up - your character would have to take on some psychological malus. +1 on Dexterity? Congratulations, you are now a cleptomanic. +2 on Intelligence? Obsessive compulsive mage. +1 Strength. Great Scotts, youre an alcoholic. +2 Wisdom? Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom. It would have got the ga…

Something like that is used in The Dark Eye and also in Ars Magica. For every virtue or advantage your character has, you should also select a flaw. This makes for some interesting and quirky characters.

Some flaws are "easier" to manage than others (having large debts is a good story hook and not that problematic for adventurers, I think. A character having memory issues however is not easily compensated, but may make for interesting role playing).

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#26

Post by ggggtez »

There arbitrary decision that 1 reroll is worth 1 score, is not even explored. That is a big decision, as it places a cap on rerolls at around 35. It's not obvious at all.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#27

Post by wccrawford »

>Let's turn this system into a game. You are allowed to reroll, but everytime you do the score you get will get subtracted by one. What would be the optimal stopping strategy?

If it wasn't just a thought-exercise, the answer would be: Quit the game and start over until you get a perfect roll the first time.

Seriously. Games are supposed to be fun, not painful. While it might be a fun thought exercise, it's incredibly bad game design.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#28

Post by sgtnasty »

dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

I think they were trying to replicate the tabletop experience. Now imaging replicating the classic Traveller RPG, where you had a decent chance of your character dying during generation. I think that any computer RPG with D&D like stats needs to have point buy by default and only use a random generation as an option for tabletop like simulation.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#29

Post by dri_ft »

ggggtez wrote: post #24
dozzie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that it's not because the game was designed this way, but because the Dungeons and Dragons system was designed this way. It's not optimized for first-time and impatient computer players, but for roleplayers.

It's not really a fair defence, because D&D also had rules for point buy (limited points to add to stats). They just choose not to use it. Planescape, from the same era, used point buy instead of random rolls. (Which fixes the pointless rerolling until you get stats you want, but not the part about making important decisions before the game starts)

Yeah, Planescape pretty much got it right, as far as I'm concerned.

Re: The Icewind Dale Problem

#30

Post by dri_ft »

sgtnasty wrote: post #28
dri_ft wrote: post #15

I clocked more than my fair share of hours rerolling stats on Baldur's Gate. But in retrospect, it seems like outrageously shoddy game design. "We're going to have a permanent set of stats that determine how powerful your character is for the whole game, and how good those stats are is going to depend mostly on how much time you spend clicking 'reroll' and a little bit on luck. And we're going to make you do this all…

I think they were trying to replicate the tabletop experience. Now imaging replicating the classic Traveller RPG, where you had a decent chance of your character dying during generation. I think that any computer RPG with D&D like stats needs to have point buy by default and only use a random generation as an option for tabletop like simulation.

Yeah, I think it's inappropriate/thoughtless use of an idiom that might have made sense in tabletop games but doesn't really make much sense on a PC.
Post reply on HN