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Let Consumers Sue Companies

nytimes.com

131–140 of 279 posts

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the point: what does that comment mean? Class actions, like any court action, isn't meant to make the plaintiffs rich. It's to obtain restitution for their harm. If they were ripped off $10, then they should get something around that. The lawyers who got them that compensation should of course be paid for their work.

Right, but if we take his statement at face value, and a significant portion of the money changing hands in a class action is going towards lawyers, it's at the very least a massively inefficient system.

Good question. Lets take lawyers a side.

How much would you pay to somebody to ensure that a big evil corporation is not cheating their ~10M customers by $10/year (100M/year in total)? $10M? $50M?

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#132
Probably not the perfect topic for the following question, but close enough for me to ask;

What is the deal with class action lawsuits WRT the monies lawyers get vs the plaintiffs.

I was a victim of fraudulent banking practices in 2008/2009 which resulted in the illegal foreclosure of my home in San Jose. I "won" my class action lawsuit and was "awarded"$1,100 for my victory on having a $489,000 house stolen from me by the bank. (Never missed a payment, never late, had credit score of 780 - this experience ruined me)

So I "won" that legal battle - but was unable to have my credit score fixed through the win...

So the question is: class-action lawsuit victories look to me to be a complete sham, so why would we value them as anything other than a "fuck you for not having enough money" enterprise - and where do the lawyers get off on their "right" to profit off such actions at the expense of others?

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the point: what does that comment mean? Class actions, like any court action, isn't meant to make the plaintiffs rich. It's to obtain restitution for their harm. If they were ripped off $10, then they should get something around that. The lawyers who got them that compensation should of course be paid for their work.

Right, but if we take his statement at face value, and a significant portion of the money changing hands in a class action is going towards lawyers, it's at the very least a massively inefficient system.

Well, in the article the author of the linked article points to a study he commissioned at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau which found

>In reality, lawyers collect a small portion compared with consumers, and only if they succeed. For every $10 that a company pays out for wrongdoing, we found about $8 goes to consumers and $2 goes to pay legal costs.

Of course we could take issue with this study, but unless someone can present some evidence in its favor the notion that only the lawyers ever profit from class actions seems like received wisdom "everyone just knows".

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#134
post #100

FACT: products liability law reduced accidental deaths in the workplace. (source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4822a1.htm ) There is no reason similar laws wouldn't work for consumers privacy. Tort law needs to be applied aggressively to data privacy.

> FACT: products liability law reduced accidental deaths in the workplace. (source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4822a1.htm) There is no reason similar laws wouldn't work for consumers privacy. Tort law needs to be applied aggressively to data privacy.

How exactly does that source support the FACT? The words "liable" and "liability" appear nowhere in it. They credit the reduction in workplace fatalities to a number of factors, including technology, expanded enforcement powers of federal inspectors, mandatory standards, and the creation of OSHA and NIOSH. They make no mention of product liability or tort laws.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU system seems to be very anti-consumer. Or is that what your summary statement is intended to elicit? (tough to tell, as it could mean either/or is the better system)

No, it's anti lawyer. Consumers are doing fine. Consumer watchdogs have actual teeth and when companies are found to have misbehaved the penalties can be quite severe. The difference is that consumers don't usually get rich from suing companies, we don't have a 'legal lottery' for every little thing that spoils your day and that you feel grieved about. That higher barrier keeps the courts free for stuff that is impor…

I must say your impression of the American legal system seems to be based on upworthy articles.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Class actions are an ideal instrument for redress of harm where the harm to any individual is small, but the harm is widespread, meaning that a company is cheating or hurting many people but it's not worth any one individual's effort or expense to sue them. If you think of litigation in economic-theoretic terms, yes, that's the purpose of class actions. But while you're in that head space, you also need to consider…

Is this related to the transactional principal-agent problem in things like real estate, where the incentives of the agents are to close transactions as quickly as possible, since optimizing for the quantity of transactions handled is wildly more lucrative than optimizing for the outcome of any one transaction?

Yes, I think so. There is at least a significant subset of the industry where the most lucrative strategy is settling a large volume of mediocre cases quickly.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Where the class members are individual consumers, litigation ends up being lawyer-driven. Cases settle for pennies on the dollar of potential damages, and end up serving neither to compensate consumers nor really to deter illegal conduct. You're completely misunderstanding the purpose of class actions, and are using an oft-repeated error. The article itself explains the value of class actions. Class actions are an i…

> Class actions are an ideal instrument for redress of harm where the harm to any individual is small, but the harm is widespread, meaning that a company is cheating or hurting many people but it's not worth any one individual's effort or expense to sue them. If you think of litigation in economic-theoretic terms, yes, that's the purpose of class actions. But while you're in that head space, you also need to consider…

I think you're making a "perfect is the enemy of good" mistake. Yes, the class action mechanism has its flaws and is open to abuse. But you're trying to imply that ALL class actions are like the one in the linked article, which is not the case, and it's not exactly honest to paint all or most class actions as being like the one in your link. Or even that the problems of incentives invalidates any use of class actions.

Not to mention that the article offers data to refute this idea that only the lawyers benfit (from a study the author commissioned in 2010 while at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau):

>Opponents also claim that the rule benefits lawyers rather than consumers. In reality, lawyers collect a small portion compared with consumers, and only if they succeed. For every $10 that a company pays out for wrongdoing, we found about $8 goes to consumers and $2 goes to pay legal costs. In any event, banks choose to hire lawyers to file class-action lawsuits, and ordinary people deserve to make the same choice.

>Consumers get only a tiny fraction of what they've lost.

But the whole point is that consumers have, individually, lost very little. If you were overcharged $20 and got $10, or $5, the company in aggregate has still been forced to pay out a lot. Any individual consumer isn't going to receive significant compensation even in a 100% win.

The article again offers data to refute this idea that consumers don't get fair compensation through class actions:

>First, opponents claim that plaintiffs are better served by acting individually than by joining a group lawsuit. This claim is not supported by facts or common sense. Our study contained revealing data on the results of group lawsuits and individual actions. We found that group lawsuits get more money back to more people. In five years of group lawsuits, we tallied an average of $220 million paid to 6.8 million consumers per year. Yet in the arbitration cases we studied, on average, 16 people per year recovered less than $100,000 total.

>Companies aren't deterred--they just treat the occasional payout as the cost of doing business.

This is true of any litigation, yet we don't usually see arguments against the very concept. It still at least forces companies to consider one more bar to abuse.

Until we have better regulation, this imperfect tool is something consumers have available to them to fight abuses of a type that normally wouldn't be addressed because of their nature. Without this tool, consumers would have no recourse. As the article says:

>As one judge noted, “only a lunatic or a fanatic sues for $30.”

>When a bank charges illegal fees to millions of customers and then blocks them from suing together, a result is not millions of individual claims, but zero. So the bank gets to pocket millions in ill-gotten gains.

Arguing against class actions makes no sense until we do have legislative or regulatory alternatives.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#138
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's anti lawyer. Consumers are doing fine. Consumer watchdogs have actual teeth and when companies are found to have misbehaved the penalties can be quite severe. The difference is that consumers don't usually get rich from suing companies, we don't have a 'legal lottery' for every little thing that spoils your day and that you feel grieved about. That higher barrier keeps the courts free for stuff that is impor…

I must say your impression of the American legal system seems to be based on upworthy articles.

I'll give you two little samples of what my impression is based on (besides the thousands of articles read and stories of fellow business people operating in the American market):

- when I was in New York I got hit from behind by a guy in a car doing maybe 5 mph. He got out of his car right away, ran over and started pleading with me not to sue him before he thought of asking me how I was. When I told him I'm European and he doesn't have to worry his relief was extreme.

- A customer of ww.com had viewed a scene that he considered 'shocking' (a gay couple walking around nude in their house) and that he would sue for emotional distress because of this. When he found out we were located in Canada he promptly forgot about it.

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel that consumer rights are generally stronger in the EU than in North America I agree with this, I feel the same. However, it seems to me, that if there is a customer related problem already in place, US will find it and react to it faster. To put an example here, all of the major automotive recalls of the last few years were exposed in the US, while Europe reacted to them with a delay (Volkswagen diesels, Tak…

The VW scandal is a bad example. They broke the law, but consumers only lost value in their cars indirectly (and there were some health effects). Given how extreme the American reaction to the VW scandal was I do wonder what the response would have been if that company had been GM, Ford or Chrysler. A part of me is really happy that the US brought this to light and made VW pay for their transgression, a part of me fe…

Just reacting to this:

> Given how extreme the American reaction to the VW scandal was I do wonder what the response would have been if that company had been GM, Ford or Chrysler

There were recalls related to GM (GM ignition switch recall - 30M cars worldwide) or Chrysler (just recently [1]) too. ..you are right, these are more dangerous things like cheating the emissions. However, I believe they are not showing favor toward US companies. There are recalls of Fiat-Chrysler cars too because of cheating on emissions [2]. However, they are not affecting millions of cars as in VW case.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/fiat-chrysler-recalls-1-poin... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/business/energy-environme...

Re: Let Consumers Sue Companies

#140
post #95
post #51

In the EU you cannot bind consumers by such arbitration clauses: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A3... Consumers can usually sue corporations at a court in their own jurisdiction. Many European countries also allow class action law suits. Yet, we have few law suits against corporations. There are other reasons for this: - consumers are not awarded punitive damages, - court fees are higher (u…

> "watchdogs" / ombudsmen, i.e. public entities that have the authority to start cases against corporations, The closest that we have in the US is the attorney general in your state. Don't expect a quick action from them.

The US also has Qui Tam lawsuits, meaning on behalf of the king, one of the more well known versions are whistleblower cases. Though the whistleblower only receives a rather small percent (10% is common, but varies), these lawsuits are some of the largest judgments in history, in particular as related to illegal kickbacks in the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries. The common facts are the business is engaging in illegal activities, the worker raises the issue to the employer and then as you might expect the employer instead of addressing the illegal activity instead retaliates against the employee (loss of hours, loss of wages, outright firings, etc...).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qui_tam

Here's a list of some of the largest, $16.5B by Bank of America; $3B GlaxoSmithKline (illegal kickback); $2.2B Johnson&johnson (illegal kickback); pfizer $2.3B (illegal claims); Merck (illegal kickbacks); HCA has 2 of the top 10 totaling near $1.5B (illegal billing, up coding; illegal kickbacks); and on and on it goes

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.qui-tam-attorney.com/amp/10...

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