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Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

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Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#141

Post by gvx »

huhtenberg wrote: post #43

The single largest advantage of Firefox over other browsers is that despite all odds and occasional missteps they managed to respect users' desire for complete privacy. For Firefox we want to better understand how people use our product to improve their experience. Sure thing. But the fact that they are unhappy that some (many?) people are opting-out from the data collection is merely a sign that they don't want to u…

> Currently we can collect this data when the user opts in, but we don't have a way to collect unbiased data, without explicit consent (opt-out).

That to me suggests the problem isn't that too many people are opting-out, it's that not enough people are opting-in.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#142

Post by pfg »

codefined wrote: post #99
kuschku wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any submission of data requires the transmission of an IP address, which is personal data and necessitates appropriate protection. And requires an opt-in under EU law, which makes this entire thing even more ridiculous.

Then don't send the correct source IP address, with simple statistics gathering like this I hardly expect they require a response. It would mean there would be no personal data whatsoever.

Most ISPs filter spoofed IP addresses nowadays[1]. Even if your ISP doesn't prevent it, NAT might. You wouldn't get a whole lot of responses this way, and there'd be a strong bias because of regional differences w.r.t. filtering.

[1]: https://spoofer.caida.org/summary.php

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#143

Post by dagenleg »

In the end Mozilla is simply going to go through with it and there's nothing we can do about it. Just like with the killing of the XUL plugins - the company simply didn't care about the outcry. I mean why would they? The amount of people that cares about stuff like 'customization' or 'privacy' is slim.

So we will toothlessly complain but then the changes will be shoved in our throats, because obviously why would one care what the non-targeted demographics whines about. And of course it will be framed as being 'for our own good' and half of the people complaining with just deal with it, just like the majority already does.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#144

Post by [deleted] »

yuhong wrote: post #129
kuschku wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All and any. That includes IP addresses (just connecting to a socket without a user explicitly starting that action), names, emails, hashed IPs, it includes usernames, CC data, messages, interactions with webpages. Anything that in any way is connected to a person is covered by this. This directive is also the origin of the cookie disclaimers, which require opt-in before collecting statistics or loading any third par…

Does it only require permission if the IP address is being stored?

[deleted]

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#145

Post by BearGoesChirp »

clarkevans wrote: post #18
Vinnl wrote: post #13

Note: "planning" means "reaching out for feedback about". Also interesting: the method they plan on using for anonymising this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy#Principle... If that is not sufficiently anonymous, then please submit the reasoning why to Mozilla.

I think the burden here is backwards? URLs may contain Protected Health and other Identifying Information. If this data leaks SSL and could be sent to a 3rd party, then it makes Firefox an unsuitable client for a great many applications. EDIT: OK. It's boolean flags (like use of flash) plus an eTLD+1 (example.org; not myname.example.org?). Even so, I believe this tracking should be opt-in with a disclosure screen tha…

do_I_have_very_bad_medical_condition.com

Wouldn't that still leak health information? Less overall, but if any is bad, this still isn't acceptable.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#146

Post by kuschku »

yuhong wrote: post #129
kuschku wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All and any. That includes IP addresses (just connecting to a socket without a user explicitly starting that action), names, emails, hashed IPs, it includes usernames, CC data, messages, interactions with webpages. Anything that in any way is connected to a person is covered by this. This directive is also the origin of the cookie disclaimers, which require opt-in before collecting statistics or loading any third par…

Does it only require permission if the IP address is being stored?

Read this comment, it cites the relevant laws for Germany: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15072474

But be aware, in May 2018 it all changes as the new EU GDPR comes into force, and that’s a bit more restrictive (and even applies to anyone processing or storing data of EU citizen, no matter where the processing entity is located)

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#147

Post by BearGoesChirp »

chimeracoder wrote: post #26
clarkevans wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the burden here is backwards? URLs may contain Protected Health and other Identifying Information. If this data leaks SSL and could be sent to a 3rd party, then it makes Firefox an unsuitable client for a great many applications. EDIT: OK. It's boolean flags (like use of flash) plus an eTLD+1 (example.org; not myname.example.org?). Even so, I believe this tracking should be opt-in with a disclosure screen tha…

> URLs may contain Protected Health and other Identifying Information A URL must not contain PHI. If it does, a breach has already occurred. And Firefox is only collecting the domain names, it looks like.

A group of URLs tied with the IP accessing them may leak such data. Maybe not in exact violation of the law, but it would allow for a reasonable estimate of the chance of someone at that IP address having some given condition.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#148

Post by GhotiFish »

Yoric wrote: post #48
drtillberg wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Mozilla's boldness in stating the plan to systematically leak user information, is a tipping point. Will increase usage of Opera, Midori, Chromium. As for Tor integration with Firefox, that really is a shame, I hope Tor integrates with something else.

It's not "stating the plan", it's calling for feedback. If you disagree, provide feedback :)

People universally stated their feedback about pocket and it's still there.

Why participate in a no-op?

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#149

Post by throwaway2048 »

gvx wrote: post #141
huhtenberg wrote: post #43

The single largest advantage of Firefox over other browsers is that despite all odds and occasional missteps they managed to respect users' desire for complete privacy. For Firefox we want to better understand how people use our product to improve their experience. Sure thing. But the fact that they are unhappy that some (many?) people are opting-out from the data collection is merely a sign that they don't want to u…

> Currently we can collect this data when the user opts in, but we don't have a way to collect unbiased data, without explicit consent (opt-out). That to me suggests the problem isn't that too many people are opting-out, it's that not enough people are opting-in.

Clearly those users that dont choose to opt in are wrong, and mozilla needs to make this choice for them...

This trend towards parentalism in software, especially software that is supposed to be user driven is frankly a steaming pile of garbage.

If you have any shred of pretense of being pro-privacy and pro-user dont do this mozilla.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#150

Post by clarkevans »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #71

I can do a quick summary of what's being proposed and why. I work in the JS team at Mozilla and deal directly with the problems caused by insufficient data. Please note that I'm speaking for myself here, and not on behalf of Mozilla as a whole. Tracking down regressions, crashes, and perf issues without good telemetry about how often it's happening and in what context. Issues that might have otherwise taken a few day…

> Don't collect URLs, but only top-level+1 domains (e.g. images.google.com)

Do you consider images.google.com to be eTLD+1? The eTLD would be .com; so, eTLD+1 would be google.com; and hence, images.google.com would be eTLD+2?

eTLD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Suffix_List

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