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Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

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Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#131

Post by syshum »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #125
syshum wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>This is a difficult compromise to make, Sorry I do not accept this compromise. Mozilla seems to have lost its way of late. Sad to see a company that was at the fore front of Privacy, and Security abandon that in name of market share and performance. I would rather sacrifice performance for privacy, not the other way around. From EME, to the adoption of Browser Extensions as the only customization option, now this..…

I think the core disagreement here is not ideological per se, but on premises. I agree with the motivation of not collecting any data. That said, I don't feel that we have a choice but to compromise. If we don't build a better browser, then the other browsers will win by default, which means you lose all those privacy and security motivations anyway. This is not some gleeful romp down the yellow brick road of data co…

What are we attempting to "win". Again I go back to my statement of compromising princibles in the name of market share

I have used FF since Ver 1.0 for a few reasons the top ones being it is Open Source, it has always been the most privacy and security focused browser, and were strong advocates of Open Standards that where inter-operable on ALL platforms with out vendor lock in

FF is still open source.... the rest that seems to be in flux now.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#132

Post by claudius »

yuhong wrote: post #114
kuschku wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any submission of data requires the transmission of an IP address, which is personal data and necessitates appropriate protection. And requires an opt-in under EU law, which makes this entire thing even more ridiculous.

Does an IP address actually require an opt-in? And if it does, does it only apply if it is being stored?

Yes[1], no[2]. An IP address is "personal relationships" data and collecting, processing or using such data is prohibited unless allowed by law or the concerned person gives consent.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesdatenschutzgesetz#Types_...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesdatenschutzgesetz#Overvi...

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#133

Post by thanksgiving »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #71

I can do a quick summary of what's being proposed and why. I work in the JS team at Mozilla and deal directly with the problems caused by insufficient data. Please note that I'm speaking for myself here, and not on behalf of Mozilla as a whole. Tracking down regressions, crashes, and perf issues without good telemetry about how often it's happening and in what context. Issues that might have otherwise taken a few day…

> I'm not directly involved in this proposal, but I personally think it's necessary, and strikes a reasonable balance between the privacy-for-users and actionable-information-for-developers requirements.

I use Firefox and always opt into any telemetry that sends data back to Mozilla. You could say I am a fanboy. I think it is a HORRIBLE idea and Mozilla should scrap it yesterday and never bring it up again. If people bring it up again, send them to the roof team (if it doesn't exist, create one). If they come downstairs, fire them. You already have people like me who are willing to opt-in to every single thing you can try. For example, Firefox nightly on Android has consistently crashed for me about every five minutes or so since the last weekend and yet I keep using it. Don't throw away this goodwill.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#134

Post by throwaway2048 »

codefined wrote: post #99
kuschku wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any submission of data requires the transmission of an IP address, which is personal data and necessitates appropriate protection. And requires an opt-in under EU law, which makes this entire thing even more ridiculous.

Then don't send the correct source IP address, with simple statistics gathering like this I hardly expect they require a response. It would mean there would be no personal data whatsoever.

This isnt how tcp/ip works

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#135

Post by tjoff »

alexrs95 wrote: post #87

I work at Mozilla, but I'm speaking for myself here, and not on behalf of Mozilla as a whole. For those interested in understand more about this project and why we're doing it, here you can find an introduction of Differential Privacy and what we're trying to do. https://twitter.com/Alexrs95/status/896366072240144385

What you guys just won't grasp is that:

1. You will absolutely obliterate any trust you have with actions like this. This is important. Because if you continue to ignore this and you will have tons of data but you will be absolutely clueless as to why your product and brand are completely abandoned.

2. This data isn't worth that much to begin with. Here is a crazy idea, try to make a better browser instead.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#136

Post by beachwood23 »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #71

I can do a quick summary of what's being proposed and why. I work in the JS team at Mozilla and deal directly with the problems caused by insufficient data. Please note that I'm speaking for myself here, and not on behalf of Mozilla as a whole. Tracking down regressions, crashes, and perf issues without good telemetry about how often it's happening and in what context. Issues that might have otherwise taken a few day…

Thanks for your input. Glad to hear someone from the Mozilla team on this thread.

Its an interesting compromise... because without improved performance and features, we'll lose Firefox entirely, and all of the relative privacy / security gains that entails. This is a good example where "perfect" privacy that reaches only a few is the enemy of "good" privacy that reaches more people.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#137

Post by acdha »

claudius wrote: post #38
Vinnl wrote: post #13

Note: "planning" means "reaching out for feedback about". Also interesting: the method they plan on using for anonymising this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy#Principle... If that is not sufficiently anonymous, then please submit the reasoning why to Mozilla.

Any submission of data requires the transmission of an IP address, which is personal data and necessitates appropriate protection. I very much hope that the Debian maintainers (and hopefully also the guys preparing Fennec in F-Droid) will disable such data collection mechanisms, either completely or hidden behind an explicit opt-in instead of the opt-out suggested in the e-mail.

> Any submission of data requires the transmission of an IP address, which is personal data and necessitates appropriate protection.

Do you have a citation for that broad assertion? My understanding is that this is highly variable across legal jurisdictions and even in Europe, which typically leads the way in privacy, it's not that simple. See e.g. https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-... discussing an EU Court of Justice ruling that had two requirements: the ISP can link that IP address to an individual AND the website operator can get that information from the ISP.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#138

Post by moosingin3space »

kuschku wrote: post #104
codefined wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't send the correct source IP address, with simple statistics gathering like this I hardly expect they require a response. It would mean there would be no personal data whatsoever.

How would you do that, though? The browser has to open a socket to something to do this, after all. And that already is a violation.

You could transmit the telemetry through Tor.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#139

Post by thanksgiving »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #85
yuhong wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla's crash reporter already has the option of submitting the URL.

There are a couple different reasons crash reports aren't sufficient: 1. Crash reports only report crashes. We need also want to see perf issues like GC and paint jank, etc. 2. Crash reports don't sample the general population, so statistically the information is less useful. If we get a perf issue, it's very important to know whether that issue is suffered by 10% of the users in general pop, or 0.5% of users in gene…

> Lastly, crash reports are sort of a boolean filter - you only get the people that crash. The things I'd like to know to help in my development are things like "what is the histogram of max GC pause times on docs.google.com". Getting that info requires a good random sampling of the population, not just those who exhibit problems.

PLEASE do not go down this road. Look where "optimizing" video card drivers has led the video game industry. Game engine developers and game developers are lazier than ever. It is not up to you to make sure docs.google.com runs well on your browser. It is up to you to provide browser that adheres to (and defines if it must) standards. It is up to the web developers at docs dot google dot com to make their application work on Mozilla Firefox.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#140

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

darrmit wrote: post #96

I still use Firefox specifically because of Chrome's privacy concerns and was under the impression after dropping FirefoxOS Mozilla was headed in the right direction. It seems they've convinced themselves that the only way to improve the product is to collect data on their users, rather than continuing to push the idea of privacy - which, in my opinion, if marketed correctly, could win over a lot of users. The browse…

I guess any browser wants to dominate the platform. It turns into another IE once it succeeds at doing so. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.
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