Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

govukpay-docs.cloudapps.digital

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 111 posts

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#61

Post by irb »

monort wrote: post #43
coffeedoughnuts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it sad? I'm quite proud to pay taxes of many different kinds, and I think that the (admittedly quite imperfect) tax system is necessary to a functioning society. I'd also mention that it's been part of British society since the Roman occupation, so not sure when in time you allude to with your comment but if you're sad about it I suggest investigating a move to one of the functional libertarian nations with no tax…

Imagine you are a Roman and arguing that slave owning is necessary to a functioning society. You are probably even correct and Roman state wouldn't be possible without slaves. Nevertheless, we know that it wasn't an ethical state order. Taxes are similar - they are involuntary, they are required to have a modern state and they are status quo. Looking at the past, we see that more and more ways to force people do thin…

I don't think taxes will disappear until money does.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#62

Post by Reason077 »

catwell wrote: post #45
pjc50 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts There is actually a legal requirement for banks to offer no-credit no-fee accounts, in order to help people get into the banking system and take advantage of the associated discounts, but obviously they don't advertise it much.

I lived in England for about a year in 2009 - 2010 and I never had a bank account there. I was willing to open one, but a law (which probably existed to prevent fraud and laundering) made it very hard to do so without proof of permanent residence in the UK, which I did not have. Eventually I decided it was easier for me to upgrade my French Mastercard to the Gold level, where I had no extra fees when withdrawing or p…

As a French national you would only need 2 things to open a UK bank account: your French passport and some kind of document that shows you have a UK address.

Proof of address used to be easy as any utility bill would do, but now days it's trickier because so much is done online and paper bills don't get sent out much any more! And, of course, it's a problem if the bills at your house are in someone else's name. (They won't accept print outs from the Internet for obvious reasons...)

However, if you're registered for paying tax in the UK then you would certainly have a letter from Jobcentre Plus or HMRC showing your address. This would be accepted by your bank.

Another option is to get a UK driver's license, which is pretty easy and inexpensive if you already have a driver's license from your (EU) home country.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#63

Post by duncan_bayne »

Angostura wrote: post #59
duncan_bayne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The necessity bit, or the not being compulsory bit? No snark intended; I'm unsure whether you're an anarchist asking for a defence of the State, or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation :)

If it is a necessity (I think it is), it's not clear to me how it can not be compulsory. If it's not compulsory it is charitable giving, not taxation.

> If it is a necessity (I think it is), it's not clear to me how it can not be compulsory.

But you wouldn't make that claim of any _other_ vital service, would you? Food, water, transport, medicine ... all these and more are provided by voluntary payment - or by charity for those who can't afford it.

What's special about Government that it requires compulsion to fund?

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#64

Post by duncan_bayne »

richmarr wrote: post #32
duncan_bayne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The necessity bit, or the not being compulsory bit? No snark intended; I'm unsure whether you're an anarchist asking for a defence of the State, or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation :)

> ...or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation Calling the vast majority of people "statist" seems to imply a (false) equivalence between voluntary and compulsorary taxation as competing theories. Voluntary taxation is a fringe theory with some fairly serious flaws... the primary one in my opinion being that it erodes democracy by pushing even more influence over government into the hands of people with…

> Voluntary taxation is a fringe theory with some fairly serious flaws... the primary one in my opinion being that it erodes democracy by pushing even more influence over government into the hands of people with deep enough pockets to pay more (but only when they're happy). The incentives in that kind of system would be all wrong.

It's a side issue to the one we're discussing, but ... that's what we have right now, and the incentives are in fact all wrong.

> By all means have a go at defending voluntary taxation, I'd be interested to hear your opinion.

So, roughly:

1) It's morally wrong to initiate force. Compelling someone to pay for something is as wrong when performed by the Government with a majority mandate, as it is when performed by a mugger.

2) Many other vital services are already paid for voluntarily, by those who benefit from them, and provided for those who can't afford them through private charity. There's nothing special or unique about Government services as opposed to, say, medicine or food.

3) Core Government services are actually pretty cheap - we worked out around NZ$2,500 / adult / year in NZ back in 2000 or so. I hope the vast majority of people would stump up that kind of cash in the absence of any other taxation. If not, I suspect that society is broken in ways that can't be fixed by compulsory taxation, either.

Rothbard goes into a bit more detail ;) here:

https://mises.org/library/man-economy-and-state-power-and-ma...

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#65

Post by duncan_bayne »

Cozumel wrote: post #26
coffeedoughnuts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well if we're talking about straw men, I didn't actually say it needed to fund a political ideology of any kind. Or say anything about it being compulsory, though in fact I do think it should be. Moreover, my comment was on the slightly silly notion that 'it's sad this is a thing now' when it has been a thing in Britain since Roman times. Perhaps the original commentator is harking back to the good old days of pre-Ro…

Yeah, what did the Romans ever do for us?

13 million dead:

    All Punic Wars: 1.0M
    Gladiators: 1.0M
    Slave Wars (Servile Wars): 1.0M
    Cimbri-Teutoni War: 0.3M
    Social War: 0.3M
    Mithridatic Wars: ca. 0.5M
    Gallic War: 1.0M
    Juleo-Claudian Paranoia: 0.028M
    Jewish Wars: 0.4M
    Boudica's Revolt: 0.15M
    Decline and Fall: 7.0M
    TOTAL: over 13.0M
Source: http://necrometrics.com/romestat.htm

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#66

Post by yomly »

robin_reala wrote: post #11
Nursie wrote: post #8

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting…

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

Are you at GDS? Please can you tell your friends at HMRC that the login system is the most janky UX I've ever experienced and is prone to social engineering due to how complex it is.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#67

Post by Nursie »

robin_reala wrote: post #11
Nursie wrote: post #8

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting…

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

>> GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data

And we all know that means it's safe forever, and isn't in any sort of jeopardy the moment it crosses a border, or in fact the moment it escapes to a third party at all.

It's all industry standard so it must be fine!

>> For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance.

Then gov.uk should use a local Piwik instance for everything, GDS are clearly not incapable of it.

FYI I can and do block google analytics JS. It shouldn't be there in the first place, I shouldn't have to block it when interacting with my own government.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#68

Post by Nursie »

aembleton wrote: post #29
Nursie wrote: post #8

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting…

I'm not seeing GA on that page. Has someone removed it in the last 48 minutes?

That page is some docs about the service.

https://www.payments.service.gov.uk/

That's the actual service and it includes GA, or at least it did earlier.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#69

Post by vertex-four »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #63
Angostura wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is a necessity (I think it is), it's not clear to me how it can not be compulsory. If it's not compulsory it is charitable giving, not taxation.

> If it is a necessity (I think it is), it's not clear to me how it can not be compulsory. But you wouldn't make that claim of any _other_ vital service, would you? Food, water, transport, medicine ... all these and more are provided by voluntary payment - or by charity for those who can't afford it. What's special about Government that it requires compulsion to fund?

All those things are funded for at least some subset of the population, and heavily subsidised for the rest, by the Government. Also, I think it's pretty obvious that "voluntary payment" for healthcare didn't work for many, many people, and has resulted in thousands of deaths and significant needless pain and suffering every year.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#70

Post by arethuza »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #64
richmarr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation Calling the vast majority of people "statist" seems to imply a (false) equivalence between voluntary and compulsorary taxation as competing theories. Voluntary taxation is a fringe theory with some fairly serious flaws... the primary one in my opinion being that it erodes democracy by pushing even more influence over government into the hands of people with…

> Voluntary taxation is a fringe theory with some fairly serious flaws... the primary one in my opinion being that it erodes democracy by pushing even more influence over government into the hands of people with deep enough pockets to pay more (but only when they're happy). The incentives in that kind of system would be all wrong. It's a side issue to the one we're discussing, but ... that's what we have right now, a…

So how would you go about acquiring evidence that this approach actually works?
Post reply on HN