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UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

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Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#41

Post by eterm »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #17
nepotism2018 wrote: post #13

"Most people have to pay government money at some point or another"...its sad that this is a given now

Things I've learned not to criticise on HN: socialism, Apple, Steve Jobs, compulsory taxation. Aren't you just forming a mental image of the downvoters right now? ;)

Actually Compulsory Taxation isn't one of the things you would typically use gov.uk payments for.

In the UK most compulsory taxation is done through PAYE (income tax) or at the sales till (VAT). Gov UK payments is in my experience mostly used for paying for optional things such as renewing your passport, driving license or road duty.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#42

Post by icebraining »

joelanman wrote: post #15
nepotism2018 wrote: post #13

"Most people have to pay government money at some point or another"...its sad that this is a given now

this is the quintessential Hacker News comment

Which is why it's heavily downvoted, right?

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#43

Post by monort »

coffeedoughnuts wrote: post #14
nepotism2018 wrote: post #13

"Most people have to pay government money at some point or another"...its sad that this is a given now

Is it sad? I'm quite proud to pay taxes of many different kinds, and I think that the (admittedly quite imperfect) tax system is necessary to a functioning society. I'd also mention that it's been part of British society since the Roman occupation, so not sure when in time you allude to with your comment but if you're sad about it I suggest investigating a move to one of the functional libertarian nations with no tax…

Imagine you are a Roman and arguing that slave owning is necessary to a functioning society. You are probably even correct and Roman state wouldn't be possible without slaves. Nevertheless, we know that it wasn't an ethical state order. Taxes are similar - they are involuntary, they are required to have a modern state and they are status quo.

Looking at the past, we see that more and more ways to force people do things against their will were discovered as unethical - e.g. slavery, feudalism, divine rights of kings, coverture.

I think there is a non-zero chance, that future people will consider modern taxation (and probably the idea of Westphalian sovereignty) unethical too.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#44

Post by joosters »

robin_reala wrote: post #11
Nursie wrote: post #8

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting…

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

So how does the average user verify this API flag then?

This kind of stuff should be opt-in for users, but Google know that hardly anyone would want to be tracked by them if they were given a clear choice.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#45

Post by catwell »

pjc50 wrote: post #38
peteretep wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linked from that: "Nearly two million adults in the UK do not have a bank account" http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31830117

Related: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts There is actually a legal requirement for banks to offer no-credit no-fee accounts, in order to help people get into the banking system and take advantage of the associated discounts, but obviously they don't advertise it much.

I lived in England for about a year in 2009 - 2010 and I never had a bank account there. I was willing to open one, but a law (which probably existed to prevent fraud and laundering) made it very hard to do so without proof of permanent residence in the UK, which I did not have. Eventually I decided it was easier for me to upgrade my French Mastercard to the Gold level, where I had no extra fees when withdrawing or paying in pounds (nowadays I think you need Platinum for that).

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#46

Post by watermanio »

robin_reala wrote: post #11
Nursie wrote: post #8

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting…

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

I still can't believe people are happy using Verify.

I very reluctantly tried to use it as I don't want to give all my data to any of the companies you listed, and yet it failed to identify me using the two companies I was allowed to pick.

I really don't see how it's acceptable to force users to give so much personal data to a handful of randomly selected private companies, on the off-chance that they already have it.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#47

Post by Matt3o12_ »

TheHeasman wrote: post #36
dchest wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data Does it prevent US government from getting this data with a court order?

>Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API Even if they could, they wouldn't be able to find it.

At what point is it, though? From the Client or when it hits the server. If it is the later, we can’t know if three letter agencies intercept the traffic before it gets anonymized.

Furthermore, it is often possible to de-anonymize data especially if you have an extensive knowledge of users and their data such as google. But even then, you can also de-anonymize data

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/shmat_oak08netflix.pdf

https://www.wired.com/2007/12/why-anonymous-data-sometimes-i...

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#48

Post by watermanio »

robin_reala wrote: post #22
splike wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice that Verify uses an internal analytics system, but the whole point of Verify is to outsource identifying people to private companies.

Right, but those companies don’t know what services people are trying to use Verify for (in the same way that the services don’t know which identity provider you used). The part of Verify that uses Piwik is the hub in the middle that brokers the identity flow.

But you still have to give the Verify companies enough data that a breach of their systems would be very serious. Eg. If the Post Office (an organisation that recently falsely sent a load of employees to prison due to their own cocked up IT project) gets hacked, they have (or could have) dates of birth, 6 years of addresses, email addresses, etc. of a good number of gov.uk users.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#49

Post by pjc50 »

catwell wrote: post #45
pjc50 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts There is actually a legal requirement for banks to offer no-credit no-fee accounts, in order to help people get into the banking system and take advantage of the associated discounts, but obviously they don't advertise it much.

I lived in England for about a year in 2009 - 2010 and I never had a bank account there. I was willing to open one, but a law (which probably existed to prevent fraud and laundering) made it very hard to do so without proof of permanent residence in the UK, which I did not have. Eventually I decided it was easier for me to upgrade my French Mastercard to the Gold level, where I had no extra fees when withdrawing or p…

Good point - I wonder how many of those millions are non-permanent residents. The ID requirements are onerous, and like most countries it's easy to get stuck in a cyclic dependency loop of paperwork.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#50

Post by [deleted] »

qubex wrote: post #40
coffeedoughnuts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well if we're talking about straw men, I didn't actually say it needed to fund a political ideology of any kind. Or say anything about it being compulsory, though in fact I do think it should be. Moreover, my comment was on the slightly silly notion that 'it's sad this is a thing now' when it has been a thing in Britain since Roman times. Perhaps the original commentator is harking back to the good old days of pre-Ro…

Time for #Romexit! Let's keep the tithes here where they belong! We can use those those gold coins to funds our own shamans! Okay, sorry. I'll stop now.

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