Seriously, using Google search trends isn't the best way to analyze usage or popularity. GitHub stats (assuming they are publicly available), would be much better.
Rise and fall of JVM languages
181–190 of 233 posts
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#182If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…
While Kotlin may be fun to write in and have the potential to become mainstream in the industry, I think you underestimate how much Java is used outside of hobbyist and startup circles like HN.
The thing is that Java -> Kotlin is almost entirely frictionless while also adding a lot of value. I can see people preferring Kotlin to Java as a teaching tool if Kotlin gets a little more traction, because of its relative simplicity.
(I say this as a long time Java programmer, now trying out Kotlin and enjoying it)
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#183Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#184Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#185If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…
Kotlin can never replace Java as long as the JVM is relevant. This is like trying to replace C on UNIX, C# on .NET, Erlang on BEAM, or JavaScript on the browser.
what about
rust on unix (redoxos)
f# on .net (.net is supposed to support multiple languages)
elixir has successfully replaced erlang on BEAM for a lot of people.
webassembly is hot and you can always use js as a compiler target for some other language
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#186If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…
> Currently, there simply aren't any many contenders in Scala's niche (very powerful statically typed programming languages with a pragmatic bend, i.e. not Haskell). C++ could fit the bill but pushes memory management and Cthulhu on you. That does sound like the niche that Rust is shooting for.
Isn't Rust niche safe low-level (mostly GC-less) programming?
I think it is, and the hoops you have to jump through to guarantee that safety are really at odds with what I would call "power".
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#187If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…
Java will slowly absorb useful features from Kotlin until it's no longer necessary.
No. They will do too little, too late. Just like the lambda that were slated for Java 7 and came in Java 8. Now they're talking about value types, but it will be for Java 10 at the soonest (Kotlin doesn't have that either btw).
They're also wont to misdesign a lot of stuff. The generics implementation is mental, and the module stuff from Java 9 seems to be a debacle in the making. Lambdas are good though.
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
Kotlin can never replace Java as long as the JVM is relevant. This is like trying to replace C on UNIX, C# on .NET, Erlang on BEAM, or JavaScript on the browser.
Kotlin is essentially Java with some sugar sprinkled on top. That's its strength: the semantics & the concepts are the same. I also never said Kotlin will replace Java, but that it will gradually grow to the detriment of Java, which is still here to stay.
With Kotlin it's possible to write a complete application without using a single class or even OO. I'd call that more than syntactic sugar.
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#189If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…
Java will slowly absorb useful features from Kotlin until it's no longer necessary.
Java is too constrained by its OO straightjacket to be truly innovative. The brilliance of Jetbrains should not be underestimated. With Kotlin they've liberated Java development form its obsession with classes and produced a sufficiently FP alternative which yet retains full Java interop. No mean feat.
the best Java interop of all the JVM languages whilst
Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…
This is for an empty program. Serious Java programs (especially those that pull in a lot of libraries) can easily take >1s to start up. Running jruby on an empty file takes 1.4s wall clock time and nearly 4s of CPU time for me. Time to compile a hello-world program with Kotlin is 1.9s wall clock time and over 4s CPU time. It's worse with Scala. If I want to write code that (say) is run dozens of times during a large…
> Serious Java programs (especially those that pull in a lot of libraries)
So, which language allows serious programs do a lot of work without time penalty?..