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Rise and fall of JVM languages

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Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#141

Post by user5994461 »

hellofunk wrote: post #85
edem wrote: post #56

This article is very poorly thought out. First and foremost it talks about the __fall__ of JVM languages yet it forecasts good things for all of those languages. The author also failed to check out things like the TIOBE index where Java is still at the top. Not to mention that Clojure hasn't even been mentioned which is a __huge__ letdown since Clojure is the only pure functional language which is native to the JVM.

I agree. There are many points and oddities in this article that make it a poor source of information on the topic. Actually, not just a poor source, a misleading one.

The title is clickbaity, that's all.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#142

Post by jabl »

berdario wrote: post #61
kornakiewicz wrote: post #52

I'm JVM guy and really wish this platform has something like F# - "minimalistic" functional language (not like Scala) with static, powerful type system (not like Clojure).

Have you seen Frege and Eta? https://github.com/Frege/frege http://eta-lang.org

eta looks interesting for Haskell refugees in Java-land..

That being said, any idea why they started from scratch instead of building on or contributing to frege?

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#143

Post by pjmlp »

Nekorosu wrote: post #107
KirinDave wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clojure supports this though. And given that removing the FP nature of Scala pretty much hamstrings its value proposition, I can see why he'd be dismissive of it on those grounds.

Clojure supports class based OOP? Never heard of it. Could you give me a link to the relevant documentation page?

Clojure supports protocols and multi-methods, the building blocks of CLOS, Common Lisp Object System.

Already at Xerox PARC, Lisps started to support OOP, with FLAVORS for Interlisp-D being one of the first ones.

EDIT: Disregard the last paragraph, lispm is right.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#144

Post by pjmlp »

gozur88 wrote: post #140
krig wrote: post #26

> I started developing in Java, late 2001. At that time, Java was really cool. As someone who was there in 2001, I just have to say: Java was never cool, and especially not at that time. It was bloated and ugly and slow, the GC was terrible, applets were simply the worst, the UI toolkits available looked horrible on every single platform. There were no decent IDEs or editors and the language was if possible even more…

By 2001 a lot of the problems java was designed to address were going away for other reasons. When it first came out it had some major advantages: It was free, so you could try it in the corporate setting without spending thousands of dollars, and your application would work on multiple operating systems without a recompile. I remember being involved in a project in which we developed and tested an application on PCs…

I was still deep into C++ back then, Java was a sweet deal versus the pain of trying to write portable C++ with compilers trying to catch up with the ongoing work for the first version of the standard.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#145

Post by pjmlp »

vram22 wrote: post #86
krig wrote: post #26

> I started developing in Java, late 2001. At that time, Java was really cool. As someone who was there in 2001, I just have to say: Java was never cool, and especially not at that time. It was bloated and ugly and slow, the GC was terrible, applets were simply the worst, the UI toolkits available looked horrible on every single platform. There were no decent IDEs or editors and the language was if possible even more…

The Java servlet API and ecosystem was quite cool at least in the early years, IMO. Very simple and elegant model, and I did some commercial work with Java servlets. There were 3-rd-party servlet engines (before they started calling them fancier names like containers after J2EE v1 started :), like LiteWebServer and JRun (good fun using them), apart from the Sun reference implementation and and more heavyweight ones l…

We still mostly use JEE and Spring.

I did a few Grizzly deployments last year.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#146

Post by tannhaeuser »

ben336 wrote: post #132
tannhaeuser wrote: post #116

TFA mentions Groovy but not JavaScript which could be considered Java's direct dynamic/scripting variant given JavaScript's origin. In fact, there are two mainstream implementations of it even (rhino, nashorn), though not upgraded to ES2015.

Java and JavaScript are not directly related. JavaScript added Java to the name for marketing purposes. JavaScript doesn't run on the JVM like the rest of these languages

I'm well aware what Java is, given I'm developing for it (and other things) since 1997 ;)

But my original comment was meant seriously, rather than cheap trolling. Unlike Groovy, JavaScript has excellent portability and a perspective to migrate code away from Java/JVM.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#147

Post by pjmlp »

nurettin wrote: post #135
ztjio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…

I'd imagine most people here are just web developers and haven't used anything beside nodejs in a professional environment, so their first reaction to java is "oh, I have to restart the server everytime I change a web page? that's a pain". Not saying it can't be done with java. Even android studio has a hot class swapping feature (I know it isn't JVM but as a proof of concept this exists)

There is no need to restart the server all the time, it depends on the type of change.

When using plain JSPs with exploded WARs, you can usually hot reload.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#148

Post by oconnor663 »

norswap wrote: post #32

If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…

> Currently, there simply aren't any many contenders in Scala's niche (very powerful statically typed programming languages with a pragmatic bend, i.e. not Haskell). C++ could fit the bill but pushes memory management and Cthulhu on you.

That does sound like the niche that Rust is shooting for.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#149

Post by kpil »

qyv wrote: post #97
norswap wrote: post #32

If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity,…

> it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger. You underestimate the amount of COBOL code that is still out there running our daily lives: http://collaboration.cmc.ec.gc.ca/science/rpn/biblio/ddj/Web...

I've done work for a fair number of banks and insurance companies, and my anecdotal impression is that there is always a java system siphoning data from the cobol systems...

Both stay around for the same reason: backwards compatability and a stable api+abi.

If you find and old Java system it's often trivial to do changes and recompile. Even a few years old C program is often problematic due to changes in the OS or libraries.

I have no idea if it's possible to compile a couple of years old js code...

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#150

Post by shock »

nurettin wrote: post #135
ztjio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…

I'd imagine most people here are just web developers and haven't used anything beside nodejs in a professional environment, so their first reaction to java is "oh, I have to restart the server everytime I change a web page? that's a pain". Not saying it can't be done with java. Even android studio has a hot class swapping feature (I know it isn't JVM but as a proof of concept this exists)

The JVM supports hot swapping. There's also DCEVM⁰, which supports more features than OpenJDK Hotspot.

⓪ - https://github.com/dcevm/dcevm

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