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How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

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Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#191

Post by tptacek »

rhapsodic wrote: post #188
tptacek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, they're engaged in other STEM fields at 2x-3x the extent they're engaged in CS, despite the fact that those other fields are often more intellectually rigorous and challenging and despite the fact that most of those fields are dominated by computers and software --- in fact, many of them are even more challenging from a CS perspective than computer science itself as it is practiced in the industry, which is mostl…

> So, they're engaged in other STEM fields at 2x-3x the extent they're engaged in CS... That statement is so broad as to render it utterly meaningless. I don't doubt it applies to medicine, for example. But does it apply to automotive or mining engineering? And even if it did apply to every non-CS STEM field, that still would not preclude the possibility that women, as a group, are simply not as interested in CS to t…

Earth sciences. Chemistry. Biochemistry. Math (for Christ's sake). Astronomy. Statistics. Evolutionary biology. Neuroscience. Molecular biology.

All double-digits better (some have actual parity) in female representation than computer science, which shares its gender disparity distinction with only two other (generally defined) STEM fields: ee/mech engineering and physics.

Nobody is disputing that women are less interested in working in CS than men. They clearly are. What is obvious to some of us is that the reason for that disinterest is that the field is hostile to them. It is hard to explain otherwise how something like three times as many women might obtain post-graduate mathematics degrees --- a pursuit that is more intellectually demanding and less lucrative than computer science, which routinely pays six-digit salaries to people immediately out of school simply to wire database rows up to HTML tables.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#192

Post by deepnotderp »

DanBC wrote: post #159
deepnotderp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question. How come the brouhaha is always about tech jobs but never about bricklaying? As a corollary, how come it's always okay that there are far more female nurses but immediately sexism when it comes to less females in tech?

Both those industries have programmes to increase gender diversity, and it's trivially easy to check. The fact you don't know about them suggests you don't know as much about this topic as you think you do.

Far less than women in tech programs.

And the key difference (at least for me) is that these programs encourage men and don't accuse women of coordinated sexism. By contrast, the women in tech movement is happy to paint us all sexist.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#193

Post by DanBC »

deepnotderp wrote: post #192
DanBC wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both those industries have programmes to increase gender diversity, and it's trivially easy to check. The fact you don't know about them suggests you don't know as much about this topic as you think you do.

Far less than women in tech programs. And the key difference (at least for me) is that these programs encourage men and don't accuse women of coordinated sexism. By contrast, the women in tech movement is happy to paint us all sexist.

You are a sexist, so why do you care if people say you are?

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#194

Post by mpweiher »

ubernostrum wrote: post #167
mpweiher wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the reverse: you commit to what you believe the memo said, because all you've written so far makes me doubt you've even read it.

Oh, I've read the whole thing several times. But suppose I were coming to it fresh, with no background whatsoever, and simply reading it through, and let's try to Socratically figure out what's going on in it. Since you're apparently very concerned with people misinterpreting it, perhaps you'd like to help. So, first off: would you agree that the memo was intended by Damore to communicate some type of argument, reaso…

Again, dodging and weaving. And not doing what you demand of others.

All the old tricks.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#195

Post by deepnotderp »

ubernostrum wrote: post #161
deepnotderp wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. Damore says that there are possible non-bias reasons that women display less affinity towards the tech industry thus possibly partially explaining the difference in gender representation.

OK. So what do you believe is the logical course of action to take based on this? Since he mentioned diversity programs, presumably he thinks there is some logical link between his argument and some proposed course of action, though of course for any such proposed course someone will pop up and say that he didn't advocate that and obviously anyone claiming he did must never have read what he wrote. Do you believe tha…

Stop illegally preferring less qualified women over more qualified men to meet quotas.

(Before i get straw manned, I'm NOT saying that all women at Google are less qualified, just that it does happen, and Google even apparently makes its diversity meetings secret)

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#196

Post by deepnotderp »

pron wrote: post #165
deepnotderp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Damore was absolutely right about everything ever and we should all stop diversity efforts since women are too hobbled by their genetic ladybrains to work in tech in large numbers anyway" Do you want to build a strawman? All we are resisting is being told we are sexist for not having a higher proportion of females in our industry despite having approximately the same proportion of which there are female graduates.

No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates. It might just be nice to have a bit fewer women report such horrible experiences working in the industry, so that maybe we'll have more graduates, which everybody should agree is a good thing.

Then, in concrete terms, what DO you want.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#197

Post by mpweiher »

pron wrote: post #165
deepnotderp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Damore was absolutely right about everything ever and we should all stop diversity efforts since women are too hobbled by their genetic ladybrains to work in tech in large numbers anyway" Do you want to build a strawman? All we are resisting is being told we are sexist for not having a higher proportion of females in our industry despite having approximately the same proportion of which there are female graduates.

No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates. It might just be nice to have a bit fewer women report such horrible experiences working in the industry, so that maybe we'll have more graduates, which everybody should agree is a good thing.

> No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates

Factually wrong.

> horrible experiences

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Here is some data:

ACM survey: https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-...

Overall, women report slightly higher support from companies then men do.

Women Leaving Engineering: https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tid...

#1 reason: "Don't like the actual work". Also, a significant number leave engineering for management.

And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#198

Post by deepnotderp »

pron wrote: post #164
deepnotderp wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your takeaway from Pinker's research was?

The same as that of most researchers: that his conclusions are scientifically problematic, but regardless of their merit, they are ultimately irrelevant to the issue of sexism, which is far better established, seems to have a much bigger effect, and can and should be rectified regardless of other possible contributing factors. That there are other causes for cancer is irrelevant to the issue of whether the chemical p…

>The same as that of most researchers: that his conclusions are scientifically problematic

So scientific conclusions i don't like are now "problematic"

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#199

Post by deepnotderp »

pron wrote: post #163
deepnotderp wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we feminists demand that the practice stop. You literally just stated that you are interested in the tech industry because it is a "powerful" industry, and you feel that women have been historically marginalized from positions of power. Consequently, you feel that females are entitled to obtain these positions in order to "balance this power distribution". Am I correct?

No, you are certainly not correct, although right now I would be happy to balance the very unequal distribution of knowledge you and I have on this subject (although I am far from being an expert myself), because I feel like Richard Dawkins debating evolution with some Christian from Kansas who insists there is no evidence for evolution because that's what they read on a Christian website that scientifically debunks…

Then in concrete terms, what do you want?

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#200

Post by rhapsodic »

tptacek wrote: post #191
rhapsodic wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, they're engaged in other STEM fields at 2x-3x the extent they're engaged in CS... That statement is so broad as to render it utterly meaningless. I don't doubt it applies to medicine, for example. But does it apply to automotive or mining engineering? And even if it did apply to every non-CS STEM field, that still would not preclude the possibility that women, as a group, are simply not as interested in CS to t…

Earth sciences. Chemistry. Biochemistry. Math (for Christ's sake). Astronomy. Statistics. Evolutionary biology. Neuroscience. Molecular biology. All double-digits better (some have actual parity) in female representation than computer science, which shares its gender disparity distinction with only two other (generally defined) STEM fields: ee/mech engineering and physics. Nobody is disputing that women are less inte…

> They clearly are. What is obvious to some of us is that the reason for that disinterest is that the field is hostile to them.

Oh yes, hostility manifested by half-century old magazine ads or phrases like "cowboy coder." If they're allowing their career paths to be altered by innocuous stuff like that, or what a teacher might have told them, I don't think they want it that badly.

There are no qualified women banging on the door of the software development profession demanding to be let in. The door is wide open to them, and it always has been.

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