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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#421

Post by durgiston »

Chris2048 wrote: post #265
Joeri wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My definition of professionalism is about treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy, and doing the work with dedication and craftsmanship. Appearing at the office at the right time is unnecessary just for appearance's sake, but can be a factor in respecting and empathizing with coworkers, for example to be available for questions. It is usually not that important in the grand scheme of things.

> treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy This can be as subjective as the word professionalism. People always use their own value judgement in these things - whether it's deciding if something is professional, or not, or if something is respectful, or not. Sometimes, you do have to just follow rules, for the sake of it, because there is no standard in personal value.

Is it really that hard though? Being professional and polite is the LEAST that you can do. Just say hi to people, don't talk over them, make some small talk, shake their hands when you meet. LISTEN to others. Don't make 'jokes' involving anything remotely sexual. If you follow these steps you are almost certain not to get in trouble, and you will be liked by most people in an office setting. It is not hard to be nice.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#422

Post by p49k »

nailer wrote: post #368
p49k wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What specific behaviors of Pao would you compare to the constant harassment and mistreatment she experienced at KP? From my recollection, most of the criticism she received was related to poor decisions she made at Reddit, and it has since been revealed by Yishan Wong that she was not actually the person who made those decisions and that she was used as a scapegoat.

I never understood why Pao just didn't say one of the founders (IIRC) fired the AMA woman and that, despite being the CEO, it wasn't her decision. Everyone was angry at Pao for something she didn't do.

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. The higher-up should have announced himself that he had made the decision. For Pao to say this herself might come off as petty or overly defensive.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#423

Post by aianus »

crdoconnor wrote: post #413
aianus wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? Paying someone with American citizenship more than someone with Chinese citizenship for the same work should be regarded as unethical as paying a man more than a woman or a white person more than a black person.

Is your contention that it is racist for the American government to prioritize the needs of citizens who vote for it and live under its laws over the citizens who don't?

American is not a race so it's not racist, no.

But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. The average SV programmer is already in the global 0.1%, they don't need protectionism.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#424

Post by fav_collector »

jmkni wrote: post #66
ramblerman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "paid army of trolls" would definitely explain the campaign against her. She banned a number of subreddits, including /r/fatpeoplehate and revengeporn. A move that strikes pretty deep at what people consider to be an open platform where votes define everything. Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama. This combined with the perceived idea that threads discussing these issue…

The way she was treated, though, was disgusting. I have zero doubt that her gender/ethnicity was a major motivating factor for the majority of people involved in this backlash and that a white male in the same position would have pretty much gotten a pass from the same people. /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/revengeporn where two incredibly toxic subreddits, and I was personally happy to see them go.

It has more to do with her political involvement and activism than her gender or race. There will always be people who dislike polarizing political figures.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#425

Post by habosa »

I found it really interesting to read this today, even though I followed the case to some extent when it was originally in the news.

With all of the scandals that have hit Silicon Valley in the past year (Uber especially) I have to wonder what the coverage would look like if Ellen filed her suit today? I think it would be much more sympathetic and the outcome would likely have been different. In fact I bet we would have seen some resignations at KPCB, no trial required.

On one hand I feel bad for Ellen since she was possibly a victim of timing. On the other hand, it's possible that Ellen inspired the other women who have since spoken up and she had to take the defeat in order to move the conversation forward.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#426

Post by Bartweiss »

ForHackernews wrote: post #241
thanksgiving wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have opposed a professional body with teeth because it ends up like a zombie, the original goals look alive but they're really dead. What is left is a. Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much b. The organization being subverted by its loudest members because everybody else is too busy living their lives. The examples we see, AMA included, are all plagued with problems. There's a quote about doing the…

> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?

> Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?

Sure, every market crash there's one story or another about employees desperately fighting their unions for a worse deal so they can stay employed, while the union insists that all staff get high salaries, but also the newest hires get fired outright.

Higher wages aren't bad, but a fairly serious issue with unions is that they're not very rational when it comes to the health of the 'parent' organization. I suspect that it'd become much more relevant in software, where companies often have rapid growth and short lifespans.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#427

Post by cuckcuckspruce »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #198

Sexism in Silicon Valley or sexism among the corporate elites? I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job. However, I have often heard and read such anecdotes about elite executives, also in non-tech sectors. I'd say that kind of attitude is more related to the impunity that comes with power than with tech or non-tech.

>I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job.

Many in my circle of friends refrain from doing so online in public as well. Never know when someone will take offense to what you've said in the past, smear you with your jokes, and take it to your employer. Better to sanitize your tweets lest you become unemployed.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#428

Post by nailer »

p49k wrote: post #422
nailer wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why Pao just didn't say one of the founders (IIRC) fired the AMA woman and that, despite being the CEO, it wasn't her decision. Everyone was angry at Pao for something she didn't do.

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. The higher-up should have announced himself that he had made the decision. For Pao to say this herself might come off as petty or overly defensive.

Yeah actually, you're right. It was the founder who should have stood up here rather than throw Pao to the wolves.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#429

Post by mcguire »

icebraining wrote: post #232
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue it's not about "in tech" though, as another commenter pointed out, this is a completely different world of private jets and deciding where to spend the hundreds of millions these people have on, betting on their 10 million investment becoming a billion. This is the "snorting coke off a model's ass for lunch" world, not tech.

Not directly, but YC and others constantly emphasize how (1) founders define the whole company culture, at least for the years of the growth phase, and how (2) important VCs are as advisers to founders, who are often fairly inexperienced in managing a company. In the light of those assertions, it sounds fairly hard to believe that the culture of the world described by Pao doesn't have a strong influence in the VC-fun…

Kleiner Perkins', etc., portfolio:

http://www.kpcb.com/companies

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#430

Post by cuckcuckspruce »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #412
cuckcuckspruce wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of jobs now are not 'low-level hardware, highly algorithmic or heavy in the domain modeling space'. They're corporate CRUD-style apps, existing software maintenance, and other such things. There's no reason that a bright student with a biology background couldn't be a perfect fit for these sorts of things if they have some contact with a computer science class or two.

Seems like a waste of a bright biology student.

Nobody is forcing them to take the job, just widening the target audience of the job search.
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