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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#291

Post by justadeveloper2 »

mikekchar wrote: post #244
ralusek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you that about 90% of candidates I speak to are male, about 80% are white, Eastern European, or South & East Asian. The demographics of the hiring pool are very much aligned with the demographics of the workforce. In terms of "cultural" fit, you're right. I do a lot of work with Hindu Indians and Muslim Pakistanis, because I have an enormous "cultural" overlap with them as a white male from Southern Califo…

I think what people are saying is that they don't believe you when you say that hiring in IT is only utilitarian. You think you are being utilitarian, but instead you are leaning on your biases. In the same way the person in the article said that they hired women because there are some jobs they only feel comfortable giving to women. This is a utilitarian perspective -- women are better at X, I want X to be done well…

The problem I have with the allegation of "leaning on biases" is that it is impossible to disprove. You can never get out from under that allegation no matter how hard you try! NO ONE is without bias, no one is completely objective because we make decisions based on past experience and there's no way to create past experiences that are identical for everyone. I know from past traumas in my own life that I have heavy biases towards lots of things and I will never betray those because to do so is to deny how much pain was caused. That is life and it's time we grew up and got over it already.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#292

Post by justadeveloper2 »

Powerofmene wrote: post #88
peoplewindow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that reality is subjective, how would you separate "lots of men are being jerks and don't realise" from "lots of women are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights that aren't there and don't realise it"? I've seen so many accusations of sexism in tech by now that I tire of it. When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things: 1. Some guy hit on me and I thought it was gross^Wharassment. 2. I fe…

>All too often the latter feels like women (and male feminists) on a power trip. The feelings of being offended aren't real, it's just a way to convince/force others to do what they want. Please explain this statement further. I am trying to understand how the person who is harassed is the person with the power or on a power trip as you put it. Wouldn't the best way to avoid such a scenario be to avoid the circumstan…

Any matter that gives you an edge or leg up in business will be utilized period.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#293

Post by justadeveloper2 »

vostok wrote: post #99
peoplewindow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that reality is subjective, how would you separate "lots of men are being jerks and don't realise" from "lots of women are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights that aren't there and don't realise it"? I've seen so many accusations of sexism in tech by now that I tire of it. When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things: 1. Some guy hit on me and I thought it was gross^Wharassment. 2. I fe…

> Nobody is ever actually offended by science I'm not going to look it up, but it wouldn't surprise me if science shows that men are more aggressive than women. It does hurt my feelings when people assume that I'm going to be aggressive/dangerous because I'm a man. There are many other examples of how science can offend people, but this one affects me the most.

We didn't make it to the 21st century by not being aggressive and dangerous.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#294

Post by sdenton4 »

SBCRec wrote: post #266
pencilcode wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to nitpick an issue that some people mix up. On average more interest does not equate on average more skilled within the interested population. Also this gender diff does not play out so starkly in other sciences, eg biology, physics, etc. And, some decades ago in the west, and currently in other countries/civilizations, this gender difference does not pan out. This seems to point to other factors beyond genetic…

Could you provide a source please? Interested to read about it! Thanks in Advance!

Here's a piece in response to the damore memo, written up by an evolutionary biologist.

https://medium.com/@tweetingmouse/the-truth-has-got-its-boot...

It spends a while at the beginning on credentials and the importance of using citations (something damore failed at), and starts getting into the science at 'universal across all cultures, are we sure?'

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#295

Post by justadeveloper2 »

tbrownaw wrote: post #260
peoplewindow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that reality is subjective, how would you separate "lots of men are being jerks and don't realise" from "lots of women are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights that aren't there and don't realise it"? I've seen so many accusations of sexism in tech by now that I tire of it. When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things: 1. Some guy hit on me and I thought it was gross^Wharassment. 2. I fe…

Nobody is ever actually offended by science The people trying to get evolution banned from schools probably are. Some of the responses I saw to the Damore memo, seemed to boil down to that some things should not be said regardless of truthiness. Attempts to even look for differences in intelligence or I think personality by race tend to get shouted down rather quickly, because historically they've been used to justif…

A lot of scientific inquiry is un-politically correct and therefore "wrong" even though it was arrived at by the correct processes. That is especially true when cognitive traits among races have been compared. Many just can't accept certain findings because it's "racist." So instead of making decent progress for humanity, we ignore the hows and whys and flounder around aimlessly instead of seeking a way forward for everyone that might actually succeed.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#296

Post by b4ux1t3 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #265
Joeri wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My definition of professionalism is about treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy, and doing the work with dedication and craftsmanship. Appearing at the office at the right time is unnecessary just for appearance's sake, but can be a factor in respecting and empathizing with coworkers, for example to be available for questions. It is usually not that important in the grand scheme of things.

> treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy This can be as subjective as the word professionalism. People always use their own value judgement in these things - whether it's deciding if something is professional, or not, or if something is respectful, or not. Sometimes, you do have to just follow rules, for the sake of it, because there is no standard in personal value.

I don't think anyone would disagree that being respectful is a "professional" quality. "The staff was very professional." What imagery does that illicit? If you're like me, or just about anyone else I've ever heard use the term, polite is one of the first words that springs to mind.

It doesn't matter if you get your work done. There are a hundred other people who can get your work done and do it without being a dick.

Note: I'm not calling _you_ a dick. I just vehemently disagree with anyone who thinks they get to be a dick (or, more generally, act however they please) just because, to borrow terminology from earlier comments, they're "talented".

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#297

Post by yorwba »

imaginenore wrote: post #267
Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

She couldn't prove sexism in court. Twice now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pao_v._Kleiner_Perkins Why would you defend false allegations by Pao? They hurt women that actually do experience it. They also give more evidence to the fact that women do use the system to get rich quick by suing in hopes of getting a massive settlement. She should be condemned and her claims should not be used to demonstrate sexism, whi…

Did you mean to reply to a different comment? This one says

> It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point.

in its opening sentence.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#298

Post by tbrownaw »

noir_lord wrote: post #118
Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

I've thought since the 90's that programmers need a professional body with teeth. Doctors have them, lawyers have them, civil engineers have them. Lots of software written is at least as critical as what the above professionals do. But software is a young field compared to all the above so I think it'll take time (or several really serious disasters...which is how the civil engineers got theirs).

Wouldn't a professional body for "programmers" be a bit like a professional body for "doctors, masseuses, hairdressers, tailors, and priests"?

All of those have something to do with working with humans, the way we all work with computers. And neither group has much else in common.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#299

Post by b4ux1t3 »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #198

Sexism in Silicon Valley or sexism among the corporate elites? I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job. However, I have often heard and read such anecdotes about elite executives, also in non-tech sectors. I'd say that kind of attitude is more related to the impunity that comes with power than with tech or non-tech.

> I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job

Or, if they do, they look both ways before doing so. The old joke "How does every racist joke start? By looking around" applies pretty handily.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#300

Post by semi-extrinsic »

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

> long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression

Of course it does. What it benefits is the actual human beings in question (child, mother, father). Most humans think that significantly increasing the well-being of your family, and in particular your infant, is a whole fucking lot more important than wages and career progression. Like all things in life it's a trade off, but an unobjectionally good one.

Analogy: if a woman (or man) spent 8 hours every day of every vacation secretly working, they would definitely get better wages and career progression. Would you recommend everyone starts doing that?

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