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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#251
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, obviously she was the best person, otherwise they would not have hired her. The definition of "best" is malleable. You may not understand the reasons why they chose her, but clearly they had them.

Are you able to outline these reasons? Because to me it seems like they were making a political point. What special experience did she have that made her a perfect match for that role, other than being a professional victim with poor judgement?

This comment doesn't make the grade for civility and substantiveness here.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#252
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In tech people get away with wildly unprofessional behavior as long as "they get stuff done", and personally I never felt that was acceptable. As a decent software developer, if my less talented co-workers, or, god forbid, some HR-type, started telling me constantly about how I needed to be more "professional", I would hand in my resignation the next day and go somewhere that didn't absolutely suck to work.

> somewhere that didn't absolutely suck to work People telling you that you're unprofessional can mean that you're the one making work suck for them.

To be fair, it can mean a lot of things. People use "unprofessional" to mean "I don't like that". It used to be unprofessional to wear jeans to work.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#254
Ellen Pao may have lost the trial but she changed - me. In 2015 I saw a tech world ruled by meritocracy with sexism and discrimination being the evils of the Med Man era. Two and a half years (and many other affairs) later I see how naive I was and how much more difficult is work in tech for women.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#255
post #41

I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley. A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry ou…

I agree with your "how utilitarian the hiring process is" but be aware that this starts earlier. As a CTO I was wondering how to hire more women for more diversity [1] because not enough women applied. After going to girls camps, meetups, talking to women with not much success (not due to the women), I asked some female engineers - especially one from Soundcloud, thanks! They told me my job ad is already wrong. This…

What do you mean be "women, dads who want 9-5" ?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as "our biases are subconscious". A lot of the white men being jerks to their female and ethnic minority colleagues aren't aware they're doing it, or if they are it's justified because it's a "meritocracy" and the techbros ascribe significantly more merit to whiteness and especially maleness.

Given that reality is subjective, how would you separate "lots of men are being jerks and don't realise" from "lots of women are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights that aren't there and don't realise it"? I've seen so many accusations of sexism in tech by now that I tire of it. When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things: 1. Some guy hit on me and I thought it was gross^Wharassment. 2. I fe…

> When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things

Investigated by whom? Yourself? What criteria are you using, or are you just using your "general aura?"

> The feelings of being offended aren't real

So they are liars?

> Guy points out that lots of scientists think men and women have different interests for genetic reasons

Guy implies that leading to them being less fit for programming without evidence and segues into promoting an alt-right agenda.

> Nobody is ever actually offended by science

People do get offended by poor science used to prop up a political agenda (Global warming, anyone?).

> The offence is manufactured to meet an end goal: the punishment of those who do not bow to the power of the ideology.

So your logical conclusion boils down to a conspiracy theory with the opposing power being a group of lying women on a power-trip. Now why wouldn't people want to enter into a constructive dialogue about gender differences and their effect on the workplace with you to try and improve things?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#257
post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

> sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be.

To play devils advocate, sexism is a thing everywhere. In some cases, there are good biological reasons why men and women are treated differently, e.g. child care (mostly women) versus hard physical labor (mostly men)

Where those biological differences aren't effective (e.g. typing on a keyboard), then yes, men and women should be treated the same.

But even with that, there may be biological reasons why men and women are interested in different things. Which may mean more women in job A, or more men in job B.

> Maybe other industries suffer less from these things because they have a longer history and have more guild-like working practices, where professional behavior is more clearly defined.

Any job which has "guild-like working practices" is very likely going to be male dominated. Because most guilds were based on men working. e.g. construction, stone masons, electricians, etc. And those jobs are rife with sexism, because of their historical roots.

> I studied CS and I never learned about what it means to be a professional software developer.

Because schools teach concepts, not social skills. They should probably teach social skills and social practices, IMHO. Everyone would be better off for it.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have opposed a professional body with teeth because it ends up like a zombie, the original goals look alive but they're really dead. What is left is a. Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much b. The organization being subverted by its loudest members because everybody else is too busy living their lives. The examples we see, AMA included, are all plagued with problems. There's a quote about doing the…

> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?

Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming Soros for everything that's wrong in the world is conspiracy theory paranoia.

And this isn't? 'The existence of the gamergate/alt-right/etcetera troll army isn't really in dispute. Equally it's well known that actors foreign and domestic have been pushing these viewpoints with actual cash.'

You're right of course, but telling the truth gets your comment flagged. I wonder what they're so afraid of...

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as "our biases are subconscious". A lot of the white men being jerks to their female and ethnic minority colleagues aren't aware they're doing it, or if they are it's justified because it's a "meritocracy" and the techbros ascribe significantly more merit to whiteness and especially maleness.

Given that reality is subjective, how would you separate "lots of men are being jerks and don't realise" from "lots of women are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights that aren't there and don't realise it"? I've seen so many accusations of sexism in tech by now that I tire of it. When investigated, it seems to always boil down to one of two things: 1. Some guy hit on me and I thought it was gross^Wharassment. 2. I fe…

Nobody is ever actually offended by science

The people trying to get evolution banned from schools probably are.

Some of the responses I saw to the Damore memo, seemed to boil down to that some things should not be said regardless of truthiness.

Attempts to even look for differences in intelligence or I think personality by race tend to get shouted down rather quickly, because historically they've been used to justify some seriously nasty shit.

The offence is manufactured to meet an end goal: the punishment of those who do not bow to the power of the ideology.

I really don't think it's all that calculated. There are things that people want to believe, or feel it is necessary to believe, and they get upset if you tell them they're wrong (evolution), if you tell them they're only partly right (Damore), or sometimes if you even look like you might be thinking about questioning them (race).

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