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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#231

Post by matt4077 »

ralusek wrote: post #41

I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley. A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry ou…

I fear that maybe there are things that we're so used to that we don't even notice them, kinda like David Foster Wallace' allegory of fish not noticing the water.

The idea of there even being a completely objective way to evaluate people is already suspect. I'm pretty sure, for example, that there are many teams where spending long hours in the office will, all else being equal, be considered a good sign. And of course, when decisions about promotions are made, it doesn't hurt to have cultural rapport with your superiors. And that may include football, or being a useful teammate in Counterstrike more often than a shared appreciation of theatre.

It's really hard to objectively evaluate programmers, and there are many disciplines where it was shown that they do discriminate even though they would profess to be completely objective. One famous example is the hiring of musicians for orchestras, where behind-the-curtain auditions resulted in many more women getting hired than before.

Note that I'm pretty sure these people making hiring decisions did actually believe they were being objective. They did not intent to do any harm. But that's not enough. You have to actively work against some parts of human nature, and try to find ways to make it impossible for yourself to fall into such traps.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#232

Post by icebraining »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #208
Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

I'd argue it's not about "in tech" though, as another commenter pointed out, this is a completely different world of private jets and deciding where to spend the hundreds of millions these people have on, betting on their 10 million investment becoming a billion. This is the "snorting coke off a model's ass for lunch" world, not tech.

Not directly, but YC and others constantly emphasize how (1) founders define the whole company culture, at least for the years of the growth phase, and how (2) important VCs are as advisers to founders, who are often fairly inexperienced in managing a company.

In the light of those assertions, it sounds fairly hard to believe that the culture of the world described by Pao doesn't have a strong influence in the VC-funded tech startup (and post-startup) world.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#233

Post by Joeri »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #208
Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

I'd argue it's not about "in tech" though, as another commenter pointed out, this is a completely different world of private jets and deciding where to spend the hundreds of millions these people have on, betting on their 10 million investment becoming a billion. This is the "snorting coke off a model's ass for lunch" world, not tech.

Does the distinction matter? Are you saying this sort of behavior does not reach the level of concern inside of the world of tech, regardless of how that is defined?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#234

Post by rovek »

Powerofmene wrote: post #200
Boothroid wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point is, if you are one of these protected groups you can dress up regular assholery as discrimination.

True but then isn't it incumbent on those around the jerk to say "not cool." Bottom line is a hostile workplace can be a hostile workplace whether from assholery or blatant sexual harassment. Some would say that gay jokes are assholery but to someone who is gay it may create a hostile work environment. Neither are appropriate. The take away is be aware of your environment, you words and your actions because they all…

> True but then isn't incumbent on those around the jerk to say"not cool." Bottom line is a hostile workplace is a hostile workplace whether from assholery or blatant sexual harassment.

I agree that the general takeaway should be "don't be an asshole" but it's important to differentiate assholery and prejudice in the wider debate because the legal ramifications are different.

Edit: Rogue apostrophe

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#235

Post by heavenlyblue »

belorn wrote: post #196
Powerofmene wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's remember that lack of provable evidence does not mean that the harassment and retaliation did not occur. It simply means she did not prove her case with admissible evidence in order to win in court. Short of having an audio or video tape, a couple witnesses, or written documents of propositions or threats to ruin her career at KP, she was in a he said she said scenario.

This is true for literal everything in the universe, and is the basis for both a philosophical concept called Russell's teapot and a religious one by Richard Dawkins called Flying Spaghetti Monster. Without provable evidence there isn't much we can assert, so it lands on trust and which side people feel is right. The legal system follow closer the scientific model and demand that the case is proven rather than dispro…

You forget that a legal system is a closed-loop system while learning the laws of the universe is (at least generally) not.

When proving the theory of relativity the universe will not suddenly decide to behave differently in order for you to have a harder time proving it. It's an absolute opposite in terms of the legal system.

So when you're trying to operate in an environment that is highly unstable and at times contradictory (killing a person is bad, killing a person who is trying to kill you is ok, killing a person who you thought was trying to kill you but actually wanted to talk is bad, what if any of the parties are lying as well?), then introducing Russell's teapot might just be as appropriate as following the proven path.

As the proof itself might be so weak that introducing something unproven might just be as plausible.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#236

Post by humanrebar »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #90
ternaryoperator wrote: post #30

For a fairly interesting summary of KP's replies / defense, see this article [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pao_v._Kleiner_Perkins

This bit is interesting: > The defense also argued that Pao was paid more than most of her male colleagues. While salaries had previously been redacted from legal documents, the trial revealed that Pao's salary after bonuses eventually reached a peak of $560,000. It would be interested to know the salaries of people who had the exactly same position before and after her. If the salaries are at the same level, it's di…

I presume the bulk of VC compensation isn't salary. And, long term, the real billions come in opportunities to invest and professional connections.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#237

Post by belorn »

Powerofmene wrote: post #209
belorn wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for literal everything in the universe, and is the basis for both a philosophical concept called Russell's teapot and a religious one by Richard Dawkins called Flying Spaghetti Monster. Without provable evidence there isn't much we can assert, so it lands on trust and which side people feel is right. The legal system follow closer the scientific model and demand that the case is proven rather than dispro…

However you are forgetting in our court systems evidence can be thrown out because it was not admitted according to the Rules of Civil/Criminal/Appellate Procedures. At that point it isn't about trust or what people feel, it is only about evidence a jury can consider. It would be akin to having to acquit someone you feel is quite because the state failed to make their case or because the state made their case but scr…

So was evidence thrown out because of procedure violation in this case?

I would note that this aspect is a construct of common law. In civil law all evidence is admissible, and the facts that would cause evidence to be inadmissible in common law would simply be additional context in civil law.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#238

Post by Powerofmene »

dredmorbius wrote: post #192
Powerofmene wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a word, power.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is Power." -- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations , Book 1, Chapter 5 https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_...

Agreed. Wealth and held power over her job security, so she was in an untenable and precarious situation.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#239

Post by belorn »

yorwba wrote: post #230
belorn wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen a local city event going through several iterations of marketing for what is practically the same form of event, and it has been personally very interesting to see how depending on the wording the participants end up being dominated by either women or men. (Generalizations clause applying), marketing that focused on adventure and competition caused more men than women to sign up. Marketing focus on self i…

Were there less than 10 participants in total or less then 10 iterations of the event? In the latter case, the sample size would be much bigger. Every single person deciding whether to go or not provides a data point.

10 iterations. The number of participants was set at maximum 15 women and 15 men, where the first event had 15 men and 4 women and the second event had 15 women and 2 men. I don't recall the exact numbers for the later events, but it was interesting to watch the observed experimentation in the marketing material, and I was there for all but one of the events.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#240

Post by humanrebar »

Myrmornis wrote: post #201

I definitely sympathize with her regarding the clear sexual harassment. But my main reaction to this is what an awful world her career was in. Horrible, boorish men, ugly business deals. A world with no aesthetic, no charm, no taste, no honor, no humanity. I would say that any decent person who finds themselves in a career like that in a business world like that should get out, immediately. Switch careers or switch c…

People are boors, people tell stories about boors, and then only boors (or people tolerant of boors) are interested in working in those industries or at least at those companies. It seems cyclical.

I'm not sure punishing bad actors is enough to escape this kind of culture trap.

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