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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#211
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way she was treated, though, was disgusting. I have zero doubt that her gender/ethnicity was a major motivating factor for the majority of people involved in this backlash and that a white male in the same position would have pretty much gotten a pass from the same people. /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/revengeporn where two incredibly toxic subreddits, and I was personally happy to see them go.

Yeah, what a shitshow. It's a testament to the strength of her character that she still hangs out and posts sometimes. I would have burned that bridge with fury. (Something, by the way, I would have been afforded as a dude, and that Pao would have surely been ridiculed for until the end of her career. It's sad that institutional forces have forced her to act "distant, even a bit robotic" in these situations.)

I don't think bridge burning is a privilege only extended to men. Nor do I think that if you had Pao's role, and angrily left reddit, that the community would have given you a pass. Why would they?

Maybe, what I should be asking, is where you are getting these ideas from. What makes you believe that men can burn bridges and women can't?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was offered a multi-million payoff to stay silent. Sure, maybe she believes her book will earn her more. But she'd need to write the #1 or 2 non-fiction book of the year to get there.

Millions mean less to someone who already has it, and has a chance to make even more at perhaps even odds. If your net worth is 200k and you refuse the payout, that says much more than if you are worth 20m

Did you read what I was replying to? I was making an argument against the idea that she is somehow doing this for monetary gain. It doesn't matter how much she values money. If her chosen course of action is somewhat certain to pay less than the alternative, she is demonstrably not motivated (solely) by money.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#213

I definitely sympathize with her regarding the clear sexual harassment. But my main reaction to this is what an awful world her career was in. Horrible, boorish men, ugly business deals. A world with no aesthetic, no charm, no taste, no honor, no humanity. I would say that any decent person who finds themselves in a career like that in a business world like that should get out, immediately. Switch careers or switch c…

Indeed. If she were being held back by sexism in her drive to find a cure for cancer etc. I would have more sympathy. As it is my sympathy is limited by the fact she was pursuing a career focused largely around pure greed.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#214
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought since the 90's that programmers need a professional body with teeth. Doctors have them, lawyers have them, civil engineers have them. Lots of software written is at least as critical as what the above professionals do. But software is a young field compared to all the above so I think it'll take time (or several really serious disasters...which is how the civil engineers got theirs).

Well there is the BCS but it is completely irrelevant and it's a mystery how it still exists. It does absolutely nothing for working engineers and seems to be just a front for large employers to perpetuate the skills shortage myth while unemployment among CS grads hovers between 10 and 13%.

I dimly recall we were pitched something about joining the BCS when I was doing my master's - I'm not sure if it was a full presentation or just some pamphlets that were passed around. I don't think any of us joined because it was quite expensive (£139 annually now) and it was supremely unclear what the benefits were.

Since then, I don't believe I've ever heard it mentioned.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand your reply correctly, you mean to say that it's acceptable to be a total douchebag as long as you are "talented"?

I think you don't understand it correctly, and I wonder how you can interpret it that way. I read the point that being "professional" is also about being able to do good programming work and take responsibility for what you do technically - not just appearing at the office at the right time, being courteous to other people and accepting HR buzzwords and policies and opinions without question.

I think "wildly unprofessional behavior" is things like sexually harassing other workers in your company, insulting people, that kind of thing.

The problem here is I think people have different definitions of "wildly unprofessional behavior".

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand your reply correctly, you mean to say that it's acceptable to be a total douchebag as long as you are "talented"?

I think you don't understand it correctly, and I wonder how you can interpret it that way. I read the point that being "professional" is also about being able to do good programming work and take responsibility for what you do technically - not just appearing at the office at the right time, being courteous to other people and accepting HR buzzwords and policies and opinions without question.

My definition of professionalism is about treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy, and doing the work with dedication and craftsmanship.

Appearing at the office at the right time is unnecessary just for appearance's sake, but can be a factor in respecting and empathizing with coworkers, for example to be available for questions. It is usually not that important in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#217
post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

> In tech people get away with wildly unprofessional behavior as long as "they get stuff done", and personally I never felt that was acceptable.

Which is completely false and not based on any facts. Businesses have different policies. You can't reduce all IT in world to a few businesses in the Silicon Valley. That's preposterous. And I doubt IT has anymore "unprofessional behavior" than any other industries. There is absolutely no data that demonstrate that.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#218
I'm honestly disappointed that many commenters here are making a lot of judgment about Pao's intentions. It's like no one read the piece properly. Here, let me help you (and get your walls down!)

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Claim 1: She's over-reading an already tough environment (which btw men also face) for sexism.

See the Ajit Nazre harassment section. Also note that Pao wasn't the only one targeted.

See the male-only ski trips/ club visits/ etc section. It's bullshit to say that it's not their fault that women are uncomfortable talking about porn stars. It's unprofessional anyway. And seriously, a top venture firm can't afford to accommodate for all members of their team?

"I was later told that they didn’t invite any women because women probably wouldn’t want to share a condo with men."

Still a big presumption to make; Pao may actually be OK with this.

I get the male buddy bonding thing, but arguably doesn't this make it harder for women to feel part of the team too?

See also the Flipboard section. Now this I'm very familiar with; make a suggestion, be promptly turned down, another guy makes the same suggestion later and wahey! Back slaps all around.

See also the section where she was excluded from meetings, discussions and 'scoops.'

See also the section where others (white, male) more junior than her received promotion and she didn't.

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Claim 2: Pao is out for attention.

Seriously I can't even -

OK, I'm not going to do a reference here. Think about it: Pao is well-educated and has a very good position at a top firm. She's also just started a family, and instability is the last thing anyone in that position wants. It will take a very serious claim to risk all that.

She was also very aware that the odds are overwhelmingly against her. See section when she asked other women who had sued powerful firms over discrimination. One even said "It’s a complete mismatch of resources. They don’t fight fair. Even if you win, it will destroy your reputation."

See section about how her firm launched an aggressive media campaign to discredit her, including "click farms" to spread negative rumours about her incompetency etc. How Vanity Fair (!) suggested that her marriage was a sham because her husband previously had gay relationships.

She did lose, but for what it's worth, she did end up getting attention - the right sort I would say (see the "Pao Effect".)

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Claim 3: Pao did it for the money."

See section when she was offered money to leave quietly.

Though "When I spoke to the COO, he asked how much I wanted in order to quietly leave. “I want no less than what Ajit gets,” I said — which I suspected was around $10 million. The COO gasped."

The same Ajit as above.

Oh yes she's releasing a new book, but seriously, is the profit really enough to make it her primary intention to sue for harassment?

And as mentioned above, even if she won, she would have lost her reputation. There's a reason everyone applauds whistle-blowers, and no one wants to hire them.

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Claim 4: Sexism is only an emergent behaviour of a toxic industry. To fix sexism, we have to instil professionalism.

This is true and a good intention, but forgive me this is also belittling the issue of sexism.

For sure, women aren't the only ones with negative experience. You could say the same for other minority groups such as black, LGBTQ etc, and yes even overworked white, male juniors.

But sexism is a major part of what makes the environment toxic. Women make 50% of the global population! And clearly many women in tech experience uncomfortable issues rooted in sexism. If you want to instil more professionalism, you will also need to cover sexism in the training.

See section where the firm admits that they don't even have a HR department until recently.

See also comments that claim women are using their gender as a card. So f---ing patronising.

See section where the firm has very low female presence in the board.

It's true that there is a shortage of females in tech, making recruitment harder. But this is why we need to go beyond professionalism training. To get more gender balance, we need to start at schools. So for those tired of the whole "women are victims" yada-yada (I admit that I also feel the same) for what it's worth, people are now paying attention and working harder to encourage girls into STEM subjects, and make the tech environment more inclusive.

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Running out of time, but I hope this is enough food for thought.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#219
post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

> In tech people get away with wildly unprofessional behavior as long as "they get stuff done", and personally I never felt that was acceptable. As a decent software developer, if my less talented co-workers, or, god forbid, some HR-type, started telling me constantly about how I needed to be more "professional", I would hand in my resignation the next day and go somewhere that didn't absolutely suck to work.

What about your current behavior makes you think people will feel the need to constantly tell you to be more professional?

I'm assuming you don't intend to defend mistreating coworkers, so you must think that there is unprofessional behavior that is nonetheless acceptable in the workplace.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that she had a financial interest (how serious is unknown) depending on the outcome, but she could have walked away with probably a healthy payout had she signed the non-disparage agreement that is commonplace in these situations.

Healthy payout being maybe 5-10% of her net worth. Risking that for possibly doubling net worth seems reasonable. Going from say 20m to 22m isn't that big of a jump or a lifestyle differentiator.

At that stage, neither is going from 20 to 40 million.
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