Rise and fall of JVM languages • Hacker News Board

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#11

Post by Swizec » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:40 AM UTC

ztjio wrote: post #8

amelius wrote: post #2

I'm not a Java guy, but I'm still wondering why nobody every wrote a JVM with near-zero startup time.

Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…

> So seriously, Hacker News, what is the obsession with this?

We are optimists, we think there is always something that could be improved.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#12

Post by imtringued » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:40 AM UTC

ztjio wrote: post #8

amelius wrote: post #2

I'm not a Java guy, but I'm still wondering why nobody every wrote a JVM with near-zero startup time.

Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…

The JVM languages usually add their own heavy libraries. I believe the JVM is optimized for loading the standard library as quickly as possible but this optimization doesn't apply if you use a JVM language that comes with it's own libraries.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#13

Post by chii » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:43 AM UTC

Insanity wrote: post #9

I'm surprised to see that Groovy slightly beats Kotlin in on that graph. I really underestimated Groovy popularity, or overestimated Kotlin. I've yet to work with Kotlin but did like Groovy some years ago. Never used it professionaly though, only for play-projects.

groovy is great. It doesn't have much marketing behind it, so it's seems to be a bit of a quiet achiever. But for dsl makin', groovy is such a good language.!

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#14

Post by user5994461 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:44 AM UTC

Java, the only language where you can consistently get work by just showing up to an interview, is not falling at all.

If anything, it will stay here for decades thanks to so many enterprise and massive projects relying on it.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#15

Post by Insanity » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:47 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #13

Insanity wrote: post #9

I'm surprised to see that Groovy slightly beats Kotlin in on that graph. I really underestimated Groovy popularity, or overestimated Kotlin. I've yet to work with Kotlin but did like Groovy some years ago. Never used it professionaly though, only for play-projects.

groovy is great. It doesn't have much marketing behind it, so it's seems to be a bit of a quiet achiever. But for dsl makin', groovy is such a good language.!

I should perhaps check it out again. It's been years since I've used it, but did enjoy it when I did.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#16

Post by latchkey » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:48 AM UTC

The whole getter/setter argument is trite. Project Lombok has been around for years and resolves that issue as well as many more.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#17

Post by baxter001 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:48 AM UTC

ztjio wrote: post #8

amelius wrote: post #2

I'm not a Java guy, but I'm still wondering why nobody every wrote a JVM with near-zero startup time.

Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…

> So seriously, Hacker News, what is the obsession with this?

We are dilettantes, we think there is always something that could be improved in a domain we don't fully understand.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#18

Post by izacus » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:53 AM UTC

Insanity wrote: post #9

I'm surprised to see that Groovy slightly beats Kotlin in on that graph. I really underestimated Groovy popularity, or overestimated Kotlin. I've yet to work with Kotlin but did like Groovy some years ago. Never used it professionaly though, only for play-projects.

Is it possible that it's skewed because Gradle (build system used for pretty much all Android applications and many standard Java applications) uses Groovy as it's configuration file language? Causing a misdetection (e.g. most Android Kotlin projects would show up as Groovy as well) ?

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#19

Post by m12k » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:56 AM UTC

Insanity wrote: post #9

I'm surprised to see that Groovy slightly beats Kotlin in on that graph. I really underestimated Groovy popularity, or overestimated Kotlin. I've yet to work with Kotlin but did like Groovy some years ago. Never used it professionaly though, only for play-projects.

Maybe Gradle is the 'killer app' that keeps Groovy popular? I've heard from people with tricky build tool requirements that it's one of the best options out there.

Re: Rise and fall of JVM languages

#20

Post by Insanity » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 9:57 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #11

ztjio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make. First. What are you even talking about? Quiet:test user$ time java Test Test real 0m0.104s user 0m0.074s sys 0m0.028s Quiet:test user$ That's on a current MBP 13" top end. And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things lik…

> So seriously, Hacker News, what is the obsession with this? We are optimists, we think there is always something that could be improved.

Is that optimism or pessimism? ;-)

"It's never good enough" can be interpreted in two way.

Though I do agree that we should always strive to make it as good as possible. Being a "Java guy" myself, I indeed do not find the JVM startup time to be a big deal in our applications. Especially in my environment (hospital) where our program is pretty much running the entire day without a restart.

So in the morning, the doctors/admin/.. start their application and rarely shut it down until the end of the day.

(That is of course quite specific to where I work)