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Startups should not use React

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Re: Startups should not use React

#41

Post by kybernetikos »

k__ wrote: post #21

What is the safe alternative here? I mean probably FB got patents. and Probably they have at least one that covers things React can do. Almost every framework moved to components and virtual DOM. So there is a big chance that any framework out there could infringe some of these React patents. So their either can revoke your React license when you sue them or Sue you over patent infringement if you don't use React

It almost makes you wonder if startups should make a point of using react somewhere, even if it's just peripheral so as to be sure that they have a patent license for whatever frontend framework they are using.

Re: Startups should not use React

#42

Post by kybernetikos »

yozel wrote: post #37
BukhariH wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that but here's the scenario I'm talking about: - I use React for my startup's dashboard - I sue facebook for violating my startup's patent without removing my react dashboard first Now, what patents can facebook use to counter sue me that they couldn't sue me with anyway had I not used react?

Facebook won't counter sue you. They don't have to. You just lose your right to use React, due to its license.

I believe you still have a right to use it under copyright law since the license isn't terminated, it's just that potentially you may be infringing some patents, but so far nobody has actually pointed out what those patents would be, so I think it's a valid question.

Re: Startups should not use React

#44

Post by cbhl »

oh_sigh wrote: post #25
cbhl wrote: post #9

It's worth noting this "you can't sue us for violating your patents if you use our non-free open source software" is working as designed. Facebook claims that if every company adopted a React-like license, that software patents as we know it would basically die. It's worth noting that both Google and Facebook's patent lawyers are generally of the opinion that software patents are net bad, but differ in their opinions…

This would have no effect on NPEs, which are the most pernicious types of patent trolls as I see it today.

Right. The way of dealing with NPEs in the short term is to have patents (encourage employees to file for patents, and acquire companies with patents before NPEs do).

My understanding is that Facebook's long term vision is that no productive entity can assert its software patent rights, which should then make it politically viable to lobby for laws to be changed to invalidate all software patents altogether.

Re: Startups should not use React

#45

Post by ec109685 »

yozel wrote: post #37
BukhariH wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that but here's the scenario I'm talking about: - I use React for my startup's dashboard - I sue facebook for violating my startup's patent without removing my react dashboard first Now, what patents can facebook use to counter sue me that they couldn't sue me with anyway had I not used react?

Facebook won't counter sue you. They don't have to. You just lose your right to use React, due to its license.

That's not true: https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556

Facebook can't take away your rights to use React under the BSD license, no matter what you do.

Re: Startups should not use React

#46

Post by CodesInChaos »

yozel wrote: post #37
BukhariH wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that but here's the scenario I'm talking about: - I use React for my startup's dashboard - I sue facebook for violating my startup's patent without removing my react dashboard first Now, what patents can facebook use to counter sue me that they couldn't sue me with anyway had I not used react?

Facebook won't counter sue you. They don't have to. You just lose your right to use React, due to its license.

You only lose the patent license, not the copyright license. So it is important to know if facebook actually owns patents covering react and if those patents cover other frameworks as well (e.g. because they cover all virtual DOMs).

Re: Startups should not use React

#47

Post by Sacho »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #27
anilgulecha wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is if you ever found facebook infringing on one of your patents, you could not sue them -- your react patent grant would be rescinded. This is not a behavior of free software.

This is the same BS repeated on HN almost every day now. You can sue FB anytime, whether you use React or not. You do not give them any kind of permission to use YOUR patents just by using React. The only thing that happens when you sue FB over patents is that your patent grant covering React is gone, reducing your license to a regular BSD license. If you use Angular, vue or whatnot open source products covered by li…

I agree that it is frustrating to have to constantly push back against the hysteria around the license, however, I think parent was correct in their initial assertion - "The problem is if you ever found facebook infringing on one of your patents, you could not sue them -- your react patent grant would be rescinded.".

While rescinding the patent grant does not remove your license to use the product, I've seen some lawyers argue that Facebook's license is weaker than a "regular BSD license". The argument goes that a "regular BSD license" has an implicit patent grant that is stronger than what the React license offers through its explicit patent grant. Thus, you are not reverting to a "regular BSD license", you are reverting to a "regular BSD license MINUS the implicit patent grant".

(http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Implicit_patent_licence#USA)

(IANAL so I have no particular understanding whether this is a good legal argument, but assuming it is, it seems like a strong counterpoint).

Re: Startups should not use React

#49

Post by hdra »

chrisco255 wrote: post #22
sheetjs wrote: post #15

There was a time when React was Apache v2! https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/3bbed150ab58a07b0c4fa... shows that license. Has anyone seriously explored forking React from the last Apache v2 version?

If they published React under Apache v2 at one point in time, how can they later re-release under a new license and claim patent rights on it then? Since, assuming whatever patents they own covered this version of React as well...wouldn't that be considered prior art?

From what I understood, It is not a patent on React. As far as I can tell nothing about React is patented... and that is not the discussion over the past few days has been about.

This whole shebang has nothing to do with React itself, or the "technology" that React uses or anything, but more about the way many FB's open source libraries are licensed, one of which is React.

The license specify that you are free to use React as you would use a BSD licensed software, provided that you never sue FB for a patent. That means, if you use React, and you happen to own a patent for something that FB utilises, you can't sue FB without losing your React license. So, your option is either suck it up and let FB use your patented thing for free, or rewrite your software to take React out of it, and then proceed with the lawsuit.

Re: Startups should not use React

#50

Post by npad »

What happened to the "software patents are ridiculous and should never be granted" argument?

Now it seems that the same sort of people advancing the anti-patent argument are angry about FB's licence. This seems like pretty muddled thinking.

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