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How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

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Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#91
> Sexist stereotypes are used today to justify not hiring women programmers,

[Citation Needed]

Only once (recently) have I ever had the chance to interview a woman for a job. She was fine. I gave my approval. We didn't end up hiring her. Why? Because someone else had more of the specific skills we were looking for. She was just unlucky.

5-6 other people were also turned down for the same reason. The guy that was hired just happened to have experience in some of the products we were working with.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#92
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger...

Both are conservative publications, which is fine, but: There are certainly some researchers, like those in the first article, who agree with Damore's position, but they are by far the minority; if you're interested in the subject, I suggest you at least read some research written by the majority opinion. The second link is written by a non-expert, and therefore does not constitute a scholarly opinion at all. I occas…

Hmm...where is this "majority opinion"?

So far I haven't seen a single article opposing him that didn't (have to) resort to crass misrepresentation of what he actually wrote, when it even bothered at all.

If you have to lie about your opponent, you're probably not in the right.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#93
post #9
post #2

I am well aware that the climate is well against this position, but you cannot just dismiss the 'Damore' view out of hand. He is not just 'wrong'. The Damore view is at the very least plausible and tarring a whole industry filled with many thoughtful and introverted (i.e. not messing with others, often taken advantage of themselves) individuals to support some view of gender economics is morally wrong. We now live in…

James Damore's arguments are only plausible in the weakest sense of the word. The only way someone would find his arguments convincing is if one's priors already favor his conclusion. If one weighs the evidence for social factors against biological factors, the question is how should a critical person weigh one against the other? It turns out if one ignores all the evidence for social factors and squint really hard a…

His claim was that biological factors "could" explain the gap, at least in part, in that you can't rule out that possibility categorically.

I don't recall him claiming that biological factors were the more important factors, never mind the only ones.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#94
post #56
post #6

There's a strong correlation between women entering a field and it having low prestige, and men entering a field and it having higher prestige. Guess which field of ours was considered busywork for women to do until men realized it was going to transform society as we know it.

That's because the women "programmers" were largely doing things like plugging wires into a certain configuration as dictated to them by the (usually male) engineers. What the article terms as programming as essentially operating a switch board - it had nothing to do with programming as we know it today.

You and your "facts". ;-)

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#95
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but even if the article is correct, and male programmers in the 1960s did intentionally crowd out women, doesn't that demonstrate what Damore posited when he said women are less assertive and less aggressive, in general? It seems disingenuous for the author of the article to declare Damore "wrong," when studies back up what Damore said, and this article itself suggests those tendencies to be accurate, at lea…

The Damore argument as I read it said not only that women are less aggressive in general, but was premised on the idea that the reason for that difference was primarily biological, and that therefore efforts to promote diversity in CS were pushing things away from the natural gender ratio. Even if I were to grant that women are statistically less assertive (probably true, though anecdata suggest that women's ideas ar…

I wish you would read what I said, rather than conflating it with Damore's memo. What I said was that Damore posited that one reason women are under represented in the technology field (and managerial roles) is that they are less assertive and less aggressive than men. I said that studies back that up, which they do. I never said that it was biological, though it's possible that it may be. What I said was that it is disingenuous of the author to declare the entirety of Damore's memo "wrong," when, in fact, studies suggest he's right. He may be wrong in his use of the word "biological," and we can debate that, but to suggest that his entire memo is wrong is intellectually dishonest.

Here are some links to studies regarding women's interest in technology, and their tendency to be less aggressive and assertive than men:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/#!po=42...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38061313_Men_and_Th...

Here is a lecture on the topic by Professor Jordan Peterson, which is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewvqEqIXdhU

And here are links to a poll from Indeed.com and the gender distribution in Georgia Tech's online Masters of Computer Science program that demonstrate the lack of interest that women have in technology.

http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/prospective-students/numbers

http://blog.indeed.com/2016/07/18/do-millennial-men-women-wa...

The issue that Damore brought up is real, and to pretend it is strictly social, as this author does, is to ignore science and women themselves.

Edited to add the last two links and fix a couple of typos.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but even if the article is correct, and male programmers in the 1960s did intentionally crowd out women, doesn't that demonstrate what Damore posited when he said women are less assertive and less aggressive, in general? It seems disingenuous for the author of the article to declare Damore "wrong," when studies back up what Damore said, and this article itself suggests those tendencies to be accurate, at lea…

There are no studies that backup Damore. He cherry picked bits and pieces he liked to tell a story that isn't supported by the sources he quoted.

You may want to research your position before making such a bold statement. Please note the links I posted in another response in this thread. Just because something doesn't agree with your worldview does not make it untrue, or, at the very least, unworthy of intelligent consideration.

Also, please don't conflate my targeted point with Damore's multi-page, multi-themed memo.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but even if the article is correct, and male programmers in the 1960s did intentionally crowd out women, doesn't that demonstrate what Damore posited when he said women are less assertive and less aggressive, in general? It seems disingenuous for the author of the article to declare Damore "wrong," when studies back up what Damore said, and this article itself suggests those tendencies to be accurate, at lea…

James Damore asserted that women are less aggressive than men because of mostly biological factors which is ridiculous if one has ever at all paid attention to the social signals given to women. Also, why the fuck would we ever stand for our industry to be organized along hierarchies of dominance and aggression? What exactly is the argument here?

Had he said psychological differences instead, would you then agree with him? There are differences, which is obvious. So I am curious what you think the root cause of those differences is, and why you're willing to throw out the whole premise, based solely on Damore's understanding of the root cause? Isn't that a bit like denying the sunrise, simply because someone says the sun moves in the sky because it revolves around the Earth?

Please read the links I offered in another response in this thread for more information.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#98
post #84
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did the work materially change? I don't think that's the case at all How much money was the computer programming industry creating 1950 vs 1980. In the memo, one of the larger points was that men are exceptional pushed/forced/heavy incentivize by society towards high paying jobs. Would you argue that this claim is false?

> men are exceptional pushed/forced/heavy incentivize by society towards high paying jobs This is a very curious way of explaining how men end up with most of the money and power. They're forced to do it! A perhaps plausible alternative theory: once jobs become high paying, men campaign to recast it as "men's work". This theory is supported by the true history of our profession, succinctly reviewed by this article.

"Forced" in the same sense that we say that women are forced to care about their physical appearance.

If we had an article claiming that men are being crowded out of the beauty industry, both as workers and customers, I would question the article if it did not take outside influence into account. The alternative theory that women are crowding out men and making it "women's work" would sound exceptional, and require exceptional good data.

> "true history"

...

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but even if the article is correct, and male programmers in the 1960s did intentionally crowd out women, doesn't that demonstrate what Damore posited when he said women are less assertive and less aggressive, in general? It seems disingenuous for the author of the article to declare Damore "wrong," when studies back up what Damore said, and this article itself suggests those tendencies to be accurate, at lea…

James Damore asserted that women are less aggressive than men because of mostly biological factors which is ridiculous if one has ever at all paid attention to the social signals given to women. Also, why the fuck would we ever stand for our industry to be organized along hierarchies of dominance and aggression? What exactly is the argument here?

To answer your last question: Because if we didn't, our competitors would put us out of business. Try running a competitive business on kindness and feelings and see how long you last.

Re: How Women Got Crowded Out of the Computing Revolution

#100
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

James Damore's arguments are only plausible in the weakest sense of the word. The only way someone would find his arguments convincing is if one's priors already favor his conclusion. If one weighs the evidence for social factors against biological factors, the question is how should a critical person weigh one against the other? It turns out if one ignores all the evidence for social factors and squint really hard a…

His claim was that biological factors "could" explain the gap, at least in part, in that you can't rule out that possibility categorically. I don't recall him claiming that biological factors were the more important factors, never mind the only ones.

If you don't consider evidence you are aware of in an argument, it means you don't think that evidence is necessary to consider. He wants his argument to be considered rigorously in which case it is appropriate to make inferences about what he didn't consider as well as what he did.

It's a quiet truth that most disagreements between people have a crucial basis in the implicit nature of how we weigh and consider information.

A great deal of defense of Damore's arguments are to only consider what is explicitly said and not how it fits into the broader discussion, which is implicit by definition.

So Damore can claim he isn't saying that he thinks some female engineers currently at Google are there because the bar has been lowered (explicit) and this is accepted uncritically by some defenders, but it's not hard to draw the inference from his arguments and his policy suggestions that he thinks Google's current practices have a negative impact on the quality of engineers it recruits (implicit).

Likewise we are told to evaluate the information he gave (explicit) but not consider why he omitted discussing the mountains of evidence that suggest alternative positions and how his arguments should be evaluated in light of it (implicit).

My position is that there is the evidence of negative social feedback is significant enough that companies should experiment with changing their demographic compositions and empirically measuring performance.

Because software engineering requires a great diversity of skills, including people skills, empathy and whole-systems thinking, I think it's very plausible that making the gender balance less skewed will lead to more productive teams.

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