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In what language do deaf people think?

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Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#41

Post by todayiamme »

est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

At times I think in ways harder to define than just pictures. I see things somehow and yet I cannot explain them in words. I can just feel the relationships between concepts and see how they fit together, but I cannot express it.

The truth is that we all think in an undefinable mental language and our common language is an abstraction of that layer. I remember this interesting experiment that I read about in Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct.

Someone decided to test if we truly think in language or not. So they took a letter and rotated it. They then asked the subject if it was a mirror image of the original or the original itself. Interestingly they found that the further they rotated the longer it took for people to decode it. Now if people though in terms of language then the opposite would have been true. 180º would have been the easiest since it was just a matter of making the thing go up to the to and drag the feet of the letter down to the ground, but it took longer than 45º. Interesting. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_rotation)

Something quirky about me is that I am a bit dyslexic so it might have forced me to be more aware of this process than most people. Just like what your linguistic environment did to you.

Does anyone else here share my experience?

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#42

Post by todayiamme »

epochwolf wrote: post #32
est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

I think in written english. For me written english and spoken english are separate languages. I have extreme difficulty translating english words into their spoken equivalents. The reverse is easier only because I have far more practice with it. I have to memorize the spoken words that associate with the sounds. (Part of this may be because written english has a dozen possible sounds for each letter combination) This…

I have an analogous problem. I cannot spell words which are spelled differently than the way they are pronounced like resteraunt and other stuff like that. I also have weird quirks with numbers and somehow calculation takes me a long time and I tend to make idiotic mistakes unless I am 100% in the moment (we all do, but these mistakes are different from what other people make. It's the same pattern over and over again).

I think that you might have some degree of dyslexia and other co-morbidities. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia#Comorbidities).

Have you ever gotten it checked? An accurate diagnosis can go a long way in formulating a response and finding a solution to this.

I can't even begin to imagine how bad it must be for you, but I do know that if you work at it with some professional help then it will improve in subtle ways. Miracles won't happen due to age, but you will be the richer for it.

Take care.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#43

Post by lolsmiff »

When we are first born, we experience a barrage of new sensations. Our minds automatically integrate this sensory information as perceptual information of the world around us. As we grow older, we begin to form our first abstract concepts of the world in terms of visual images.

Humans cannot communicate in concepts, however, and we need a perceptual language (optimally one that we can both see and hear) to do so. Not only does this enable us to communicate ideas and concepts to others, but it also serves as a kind of storage system for the mind, making learning and the formation of complex thoughts much easier.

It is generally easier to think in terms of language than abstracts, because language is simply the concrete form of conceptual information.

Because deaf people can only visually, not audibly, perceive their language, they are obviously set back in terms of their ability to learn and think audibly. However, because they can still use sign language and understand written language, I would not expect their learning or thinking ability to be lessened by any significant degree.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#44

Post by shasta »

shasta wrote: post #24
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #13

My aunt was a deaf-mute (That's what she called herself. I have no idea if the term is pejorative) Her husband, my uncle, was blind. So she would sign things that he couldn't see, and he would yell at her and she couldn't hear them. Made for a great marriage. (Joking aside, it was really interesting to watch them communicate. He would hold her hands while she "spoke" Then she would hold his hands -- so he knew she wa…

I think I saw a documentary about your aunt and uncle, with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder.

Wow, it says -4, but I seem to have lost over 30 karma on this comment. Is -4 just the display cap?

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#45

Post by sliverstorm »

est wrote: post #25

> Your speculations raise a larger question: Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to. Wait, I have a question: by thinking in language, does this mean, that, it's very common for people (in the English speaking world) to think like there was a background voice speaking in your head, like the thinking bubble scenes depicted in movies and sitcoms? As a Chinese, n…

I don't think in English as if I was having a conversation with myself. I think the best way to describe it is my brain precaches the words of objects or things or concepts I am thinking about.

If I look at the bolts sitting on my table, I don't literally think in my mind 'oh look those are bolts'. I recognize them for what they are, my brain does some processing, and at the same time as my mind is about to wander off thinking about the project I have them for, it loads the word 'bolts' into fast-access memory for immediate access.

That's why I get so hung up if I see or discuss something I can't remember the word for. I go into a waiting-for-IO state where I can't precache the right word :)

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#46

Post by david »

todayiamme wrote: post #42
epochwolf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in written english. For me written english and spoken english are separate languages. I have extreme difficulty translating english words into their spoken equivalents. The reverse is easier only because I have far more practice with it. I have to memorize the spoken words that associate with the sounds. (Part of this may be because written english has a dozen possible sounds for each letter combination) This…

I have an analogous problem. I cannot spell words which are spelled differently than the way they are pronounced like resteraunt and other stuff like that. I also have weird quirks with numbers and somehow calculation takes me a long time and I tend to make idiotic mistakes unless I am 100% in the moment (we all do, but these mistakes are different from what other people make. It's the same pattern over and over agai…

>> I cannot spell words which are spelled differently than the way they are pronounced like resteraunt

Sure can't ;)

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#47

Post by kripssmart »

As a child I started thinking on images and pictures than on words and I had the impression for a long while that everyone does the same. Though I never had any issue with my thinking or hearing or talking, I comparatively had slow speed at putting those thoughts into words. Or in otherwords, my thinking speed exceeded my talking speed. 2 points to mention - 1. Either that speed difference is the reason why my brain developed a different interface for thinking in terms of images and pictures than on words. 2. Or maybe because my brain used images first hand and that’s why my talking speed became slow (since visual network is comparatively faster than words). [A brain scan should tell you the difference]

Either way, I just said this to explain that our brain just needs a medium to think or if explained in terms of semantics - a medium to develop the semantic net. The voice that you have in your head is not something with which you are born. It’s something that’s being developed. It’s the same that happens with anyone with a hearing/speaking impairment that the brain will develop a different interface for them to think. For example, most people with autism probably will have a different thinking medium. Not sure if I can say it this way - but I felt that the brain uses ‘its own language’ to develop its thinking ability based on how you are.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#48

Post by Groxx »

shasta wrote: post #44
shasta wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I saw a documentary about your aunt and uncle, with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder.

Wow, it says -4, but I seem to have lost over 30 karma on this comment. Is -4 just the display cap?

I think it is. I've down-voted a couple -4s, but on refresh it still shows -4.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#49

Post by RiderOfGiraffes »

shasta wrote: post #44
shasta wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I saw a documentary about your aunt and uncle, with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder.

Wow, it says -4, but I seem to have lost over 30 karma on this comment. Is -4 just the display cap?

Yes. This was mentioned some time ago - apparently the display of negative votes is capped but the votes continue to have an effect.

Here's an idea: It would be interesting to have the minimum karma required to downvote an item increase with the absolute value of the existing value. Thus as a comment goes more and more negative, fewer and fewer people could successfully downvote it.

Re: In what language do deaf people think?

#50

Post by rictic »

saint-loup wrote: post #7

"Research suggests that the brain of a native deaf signer is organized differently from that of a hearing person." That's trivial. It just means "the mind is a structure inplemented in the brain, so any change in the mind translates into some change in the brain".

It's remarkable if we can observe these differences directly given our currently rather course scanning mechanisms. That may or may not be what the author was saying though.
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