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Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

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Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#81
Payments may affect prescribing, but I think that system factors count for more than many people realize. By way of an example, imagine the following case, which is reasonably common at the outpatient medicine office I am rotating through:

A 46 yo M with diabetes, hypertension, a 30 pack year smoking history, and low back pain that has been treated with oxycodone ever since a failed back operation 1.5 years ago presents to your office for routine follow-up. It's 10am, the hospital allots 15 minutes for routine appointments, and your next patient is in the waiting room. You are his physician -- what do you prioritize?

Smoking, diabetes, and hypertension are a perfect storm for a heart attack in the next 10 years, so how much time do you want to spend optimizing antihypertensive meds and glucose control? You could talk to him about quitting smoking, which is pretty high-yield since it would lower his cardiovascular and cancer risk. On the other hand, he doesn't seem particularly motivated to quit right now.

You would like to see him exercise more and eat better, since his blood sugars are not too bad yet, and you might be able to spare him daily insulin injections. But, his back pain is so bad that walking is difficult and exercise is out of the question. Tylenol and ibuprofen only "take the edge off". Oxycodone is the one thing that seems to really help. He asks you to refill his prescription, especially because "the pain is so bad at night, I can't sleep without it".

His quality-of-life is already poor, and it would become miserable if you took away his opioid script without providing some other form of pain control. You believe that he might benefit from physical therapy and time. He is willing to try PT, but he is adamant that he will not be able to "do all of the stretches and stuff" without taking oxycodone beforehand.

You now have 7 minutes to come up with a plan he agrees on (you're there to help him, after all), put in your orders, and read up on the next patient. How do you want to allocate your time? What if you suggest cutting down on his oxycodone regimen and he pushes back?

I don't know if there is a good answer. But these situations happen all the time, and someone has to make a decision. Most doctors are normal people. The different backgrounds, personalities, willingness to engage in confrontation or teaching, and varying degrees of concern for public health vs. individual patient needs, etc. lead to a variety of approaches. In the end, I think that pharma payments have a marginal effect on most doctors who have families, bosses, insurance constraints, a full waiting room, and are faced with the patient above.

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#82
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ignoring the fact that up until recently, pain was considered to be the fifth vital sign and was just as important to treat as things like a fever. Medicine as a field is largely about removing discomfort, as many medical conditions could be relatively debilitating. Think how many times taking an ibuprofen/acetaminophen just made it possible for you to go on with your day, rather than needing to lay in bed in ag…

The problem in my mind, that the parent is intimating at, is that we confer far too much control to and assume far too much competence and beneficence on the part of physicians. I am not saying they are a corrupt class, nor would I mean to imply that. But I do think we need to think of physicians as a part of health care, rather than at the top of it. The entire drug regulation system is predicated on the idea that y…

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Is it your contention that, if anyone could get opiates without any regulation or prescription, fewer people would take them than they do now? Why would scrutiny of any kind by anyone lead to reduced usage in a case like this if that scrutiny had no regulatory effect on who could obtain narcotic painkillers?

I understand (though disagree with) the libertarian philosophy that you should be free to take anything you please, but I fail to see how such a situation would lead to decreased use.

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#83
post #33

Maybe it's because Americans just have this cognitive dissonance that their trusted doctor could be any less than 100% conscientious about their health, but we need to plainly face the fact that if members of the press were able to write exposés about drug makers' fudging the data about the addictiveness and effectiveness of their products, that doctors with their medical training and responsibility over actual peopl…

Your ignoring the fact that up until recently, pain was considered to be the fifth vital sign and was just as important to treat as things like a fever. Medicine as a field is largely about removing discomfort, as many medical conditions could be relatively debilitating. Think how many times taking an ibuprofen/acetaminophen just made it possible for you to go on with your day, rather than needing to lay in bed in ag…

Let's also keep in mind that as recently as the 1970s doctors in the US often did not prescribe opioid medication, whatsoever. In some cases, even for terminally ill patients.

I think this made fertile ground for huge swing back that pharma got from prescribing it. The situation of such massive underprescribing allowed massive overprescribing, in a way.

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#84
post #12

This should be kept in context. Let's say the manufacturer presented new data at a conference. During that presentation they provided lunch and refreshments. Everyone of those doctors that attended will now show up in the CMS database. Do we think that a $15 lunch is going to influence a physician to over-prescribe a drug?

They could eliminate the suspicion by not buying lunch. A relative of mine was a pharma salesman. She had a database with the lunch preferences for every doctor on her circuit, and bought several lunches a day.

> bought several lunches a day

Sequentially, or in parallel?

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#85
post #73

"the average payment to physicians was $15, the top 1 percent of physicians reported receiving more than $2,600 annually in payments" Neither is enough to sway most physicians IMO. This seems to me like trying to stir up a scandal where there really isn't one. I did hear on the radio today that 90% of prescription opiates are sold in USA and Canada, with the bulk of that being the USA. Other countries treat pain more…

When I was living in Europe and had my wisdom-tooth removed I only got a local anesthetic so I wouldn't feel the cutting. Recently I heard a friend of mine (here in the US) say she was given vicodin afterwards. To me that's just insane. Sure I was a little uncomfortable for half a day but I'm not going to take bloody opioids because of that. It might also be the case that people just don't ask for it as easily as in the US (I mean, it's much more common to hear Americas place food orders with a bunch of custom stuff, Europeans usually just order what's on the menu).

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#86
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you, but, even if - if!- meditation would work for everyone,it's unrealistic to expect everyone to start meditating. Exercise is good for virtually everyone, and that's common knowledge. Yet relatively few go through the trouble.

I'm not saying that everyone should meditate. I'm only bringing it up because I think it sheds a light on the true nature of pain and why simply removing it with chemicals at all costs is a very dangerous thing to be doing. We need to better understand that nature of pain and understand how to deal with it both physiologically and psychologically rather than taking the naive approach using chemicals, because a mind-b…

>We need to better understand that nature of pain

Pain science is a very well-researched field that gets plenty of funding and is worked on by some of the best scientists and doctors in the world who have no corrupt agenda.

There is no conspiracy. Just doctors over-prescribing opioids, patients lying to get them, and a few very corrupt "pain management" shops - primarily in Florida - handing them out like candy.

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#87
post #85
post #73

"the average payment to physicians was $15, the top 1 percent of physicians reported receiving more than $2,600 annually in payments" Neither is enough to sway most physicians IMO. This seems to me like trying to stir up a scandal where there really isn't one. I did hear on the radio today that 90% of prescription opiates are sold in USA and Canada, with the bulk of that being the USA. Other countries treat pain more…

When I was living in Europe and had my wisdom-tooth removed I only got a local anesthetic so I wouldn't feel the cutting. Recently I heard a friend of mine (here in the US) say she was given vicodin afterwards. To me that's just insane. Sure I was a little uncomfortable for half a day but I'm not going to take bloody opioids because of that. It might also be the case that people just don't ask for it as easily as in…

I didn't get any pain pills after wisdom teeth. I had local anesthetic and nitrous oxide gas to ease me, but not enough to sedate me (and obviously, no IV).

Some people are given pain pills because their teeth are impacted and the doctors have to break bones; the surgery is far more painful in the recovery stage than if it goes normally.

Even still, a common theme amongst my friends who got vicodin after the surgery was them not taking the pills, or only taking a single dose the day after to manage the pain.

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could eliminate the suspicion by not buying lunch. A relative of mine was a pharma salesman. She had a database with the lunch preferences for every doctor on her circuit, and bought several lunches a day.

> bought several lunches a day Sequentially, or in parallel?

Parallel. For any given clinic, she would know which doctors worked there, and what their preferences were at the nearby take-out sandwich shops.

Whenever I used to go to a clinic, I noticed that if it was around lunchtime, the salesmen started piling up in the lobby.

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#89
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ignoring the fact that up until recently, pain was considered to be the fifth vital sign and was just as important to treat as things like a fever. Medicine as a field is largely about removing discomfort, as many medical conditions could be relatively debilitating. Think how many times taking an ibuprofen/acetaminophen just made it possible for you to go on with your day, rather than needing to lay in bed in ag…

I think you're raising an interesting point, but I disagree with your example - what pain that is so bad its sufferer needs "to lay in bed in agony" can be relieved by ibuprofen, acetaminophen, or any other OTC pain reliever? The Great Binge[0] ended long ago - perhaps for the wrong reasons, but ended nonetheless, until recently when legal opioid prescriptions spiked. This is about doctors putting their patients at r…

[deleted]

Re: Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors

#90
post #59
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Headaches can easily be that bad and relieved with ibuprofen. Otherwise yeah, it's lay in bed and try to sleep and hope they don't last into the next day.

Or, sometimes, they're not. My wife gets bad migraines. For the most part, nothing works. She has not tried, and is not interested in trying opioids for them, though.

She should try sumatriptan. Works amazingly well for me.
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