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Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

theguardian.com

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Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#41

Post by oliv__ »

peterburkimsher wrote: post #12

I went to Shenzhen and worked for Egoman, a Chinese company that made the first batch of Raspberry Pis, before that manufacturing got moved to Wales. The dormitories look typical. I arranged to stay in one through a different friend; mine wasn't arranged by the company. Now I'm in Taiwan, and life is better here. Factories are newer and cleaner, and working hours are more sane. Chinese factories often set long shifts…

I'm sorry this adds nothing to the conversation, but god damn the audience on this site will never cease to amaze me! HN has it all.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#42

Post by jdietrich »

pm90 wrote: post #32
jdietrich wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very large proportion of workers in technology factories are internal migrants. Many of them will have grown up on subsistence farms in the poorer regions of China. Like most migrant workers, they're working hard and saving money towards a planned future. They overwhelmingly prefer factories with dormitories, because it keeps their living costs down and allows them to save more money. "Exploitation" is a subjective…

Ah that makes sense. So what you're saying is that these laborers put up with the harsh working conditions in order to retire to a better life back home in their "native" province/village?

They have the same hopes and ambitions as any of us. Some of them want to move back home and build a house, some of them want to start a business, some of them just want the chance to put their kids through college.

Cities like San Francisco and London are full of people who live in cramped shared apartments and work ridiculously long hours. Some of them are graduates working for a startup, some of them are immigrant labourers working in construction. They're not planning on staying there forever, but they've chosen the best opportunity available to them.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#43

Post by bsder »

derping69 wrote: post #28
tapatio wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if they get the massive tax breaks they are demanding.

a small slice of pie is better than all of a non-existent pie because the pie relocated to another state or country

Not necessarily. Increasing research into these "tax incentive" schemes shows that most of the time the jurisdictions in question would be better off without the plant.

The big recent change is that measurements and penalties are starting to get written into these agreements. When you have to go that far, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#44

Post by vacri »

DanBC wrote: post #34
nobodyorother wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the 3BN tax-dollar giveaway, Wisconsin will not receive any positive pie returns from Foxconn until 2043. Assuming Foxconn doesn't move on to another location in 2042. It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there since 2010: "It wouldn’t be Foxconn without people dying."

> It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there since 2010 Suicide is very common. Pick any large company and you'll find similar rates of death by suicide.

I pick Apple's California campuses. Now, where are the people flinging themselves off company buildings there?

This apologism misses the fact that the Foxconn suicide statistics are about suicide attempts on company grounds reported to the company. Most suicide attempts aren't known to the company - if someone dies outside the company, it's not necessarily known to the company or counted as part of the aggregate statistics.

I've known two people attempt suicide, and neither of them let their workplace know. Similarly, a friend of a friend committed suicide by flinging himself from a hospital roof - do you really think his company would count his death as being due to their workplace? Of course not, what company would ever tie a suicide to themselves if they could avoid it, regardless of whether they contributed to it.

In short, your argument makes the false assumption that the people killing themselves at their workplace are the only suicides in that demographic.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#45

Post by vacri »

jdietrich wrote: post #21
tajen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how many times it's been said and how sensible the question is, would you have a source for that?

It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

It's not 'simple maths'. Those are 'on-campus suicides', not 'all suicides in the demographic'. Your own link also points out that suicides are mostly elderly rural people, which doesn't line up with the Foxconn worker demographic.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#46

Post by nomel »

tziki wrote: post #38

One thing I always find chilling about stories like these is the description of work - specifically, how easily it can be automated. Very few people in western countries depend on jobs like these, but your average Chinese doesn't have much padding against automation taking away this type of jobs. Articles like these make me feel very lucky to have been born into a country which gives me enough opportunities to pad my…

> how easily it can be automated

You're correct. Here's a story of them replacing 60,000 people in one factory. Just incredible!

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#47

Post by mc32 »

devrandomguy wrote: post #27
peterburkimsher wrote: post #12

I went to Shenzhen and worked for Egoman, a Chinese company that made the first batch of Raspberry Pis, before that manufacturing got moved to Wales. The dormitories look typical. I arranged to stay in one through a different friend; mine wasn't arranged by the company. Now I'm in Taiwan, and life is better here. Factories are newer and cleaner, and working hours are more sane. Chinese factories often set long shifts…

Based on your name, I assume that you are not ethnically Asian. Do you find racism / xenophobia to be a significant issue for you in either Shenzhen or Taiwan? As a very white Canadian, if I wanted to explore, work and travel for years on end, and was willing to live at the same financial level as the locals, would that be offensive to them?

TW are pretty easy going. Take a short 4mo course (up to you to take more) of mandarin so you can go out and about without a translator.

You will not likely face any racism at all, unless you go into strange places. But you won't get it from everyday people. If anything they'll more than likely assume you're educated and have good manners. They pretty much give you the benefit of the doubt.

Knowing (even basic) mandarin goes a long way.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#48

Post by cdibona »

peterburkimsher wrote: post #12

I went to Shenzhen and worked for Egoman, a Chinese company that made the first batch of Raspberry Pis, before that manufacturing got moved to Wales. The dormitories look typical. I arranged to stay in one through a different friend; mine wasn't arranged by the company. Now I'm in Taiwan, and life is better here. Factories are newer and cleaner, and working hours are more sane. Chinese factories often set long shifts…

You mean k-tv wasn't culture enough for you?

edit: I enjoyed k-tv on my visits to Shenzhen.

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#49

Post by nupertino »

vacri wrote: post #44
DanBC wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there since 2010 Suicide is very common. Pick any large company and you'll find similar rates of death by suicide.

I pick Apple's California campuses. Now, where are the people flinging themselves off company buildings there? This apologism misses the fact that the Foxconn suicide statistics are about suicide attempts on company grounds reported to the company. Most suicide attempts aren't known to the company - if someone dies outside the company, it's not necessarily known to the company or counted as part of the aggregate stat…

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561995/Police-inves...

Although I don’t know what this does to your statistics; Foxconn employed and houses 2x magnitude more workers vs the apple campus (which houses none)

Re: Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city

#50

Post by valuearb »

random023987 wrote: post #24
jdietrich wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

> It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. You need to take it one step further; you should compare it to the suicide rate of healthy, employed young adults. If (for example) the suicide rate is higher than employed adults, but comparable to unemployed, it would show a serious pro…

What is the suicide rate for young adults stuck working brutal rural farm jobs? Because that's what most of Foxconn employees waiting in line to escape.
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