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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#221

Post by oliwarner »

luckydude wrote: post #220
oliwarner wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Removed needless flippancy. Do you consider somebody who demands they put their chainsaw trousers on first inept and unsafe? What about people who don't disable/remove their chainsaw brakes? Trained operators are the ultimate safety feature, right? And these features actually weigh you down. These innovations were obviously warmly welcomed by arboriculturalists. Why do so many woodworkers think they're beyond t…

I dunno why you're all worked up. I didn't say anyone was inept (I sure hope I didn't, if I did, my apologies). Nor did I say you should remove your chainsaw brake. What I was saying was what works for me . If you want to approach things differently, be my guest, I wasn't trying to convince to be a clone of me, I was just saying this is what works for me. Not sure why that is such a controversial thing. Shrug.

You'd previously said:

> If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop.

I just wondered if your feelings towards table saw safety equipment were transferable to other dangerous machinery.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#222

Post by luckydude »

oliwarner wrote: post #221
luckydude wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno why you're all worked up. I didn't say anyone was inept (I sure hope I didn't, if I did, my apologies). Nor did I say you should remove your chainsaw brake. What I was saying was what works for me . If you want to approach things differently, be my guest, I wasn't trying to convince to be a clone of me, I was just saying this is what works for me. Not sure why that is such a controversial thing. Shrug.

You'd previously said: > If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop. I just wondered if your feelings towards table saw safety equipment were transferable to other dangerous machinery.

The sawstop solves one problem that tablesaws have. They have other problems, they can throw wood hard enough to go through a wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc

I said if you "need" what that sawstop has. I was specific in my choice words. I didn't say "want", I said "need" because that implies you are careless enough that the sawstop is a necessity.

Let me try it this way: if you are unable to run a tablesaw without getting your fingers in the blade, of course I don't want you in my shop.

I'm not against safety equipment, I'm against people leaning on it, to me that's a crutch that's going to let you down at some point.

And just to be clear, this is the system that works for me. This is part of how I stay alert and don't let myself get complacent. You want to use a different system, great, in your shop do whatever you want. In my shop, all equipment is dangerous, that's the rule, people who don't like that rule aren't welcome to use my equipment. Pretty much the same rule that my shop instructor taught me 40 years ago and it has worked so far for me.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#223

Post by oliwarner »

luckydude wrote: post #222
oliwarner wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd previously said: > If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop. I just wondered if your feelings towards table saw safety equipment were transferable to other dangerous machinery.

The sawstop solves one problem that tablesaws have. They have other problems, they can throw wood hard enough to go through a wall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc I said if you "need" what that sawstop has. I was specific in my choice words. I didn't say "want", I said "need" because that implies you are careless enough that the sawstop is a necessity. Let me try it this way: if you are unable to run a t…

WFM™ here is survival bias given form. Your system hasn't failed you yet. When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit.

The people saying they "need" this stuff are just saying they see avoidable risk and recognise their bodies are a finite resource worth the expense, even inconvenience of a few extra safety features. We're not talking about using sawstops in isolation.

But anyway, we clearly differ in our approach to risk, or perhaps how we balance our own skills against it. Whatever it is, I don't think I'm going to change your opinion here.

Stay lucky, dude.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#224

Post by luckydude »

oliwarner wrote: post #223
luckydude wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sawstop solves one problem that tablesaws have. They have other problems, they can throw wood hard enough to go through a wall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc I said if you "need" what that sawstop has. I was specific in my choice words. I didn't say "want", I said "need" because that implies you are careless enough that the sawstop is a necessity. Let me try it this way: if you are unable to run a t…

WFM™ here is survival bias given form. Your system hasn't failed you yet . When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit. The people saying they "need" this stuff are just saying they see avoidable risk and recognise their bodies are a finite resource worth the expense, even inconvenience of a few extra safety features. We're not talking about using sawstops in isolation. But anyway…

"When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit."

By that logic I should just get rid of my 3 wood lathes, metal lathe, 2 bandsaws, drillpress, chop saw, shaper, horizontal boring machine, metal bandsaw, sawzall, circle saws, etc, because none of those have the sawstop feature.

And, by the same logic, loose the 5 chainsaws, the industrial chipper, the excavator, the two tractors, the rhino, because none of those are safe either.

Which is just silly. This whole discussion is silly. I've got a system that's been working for me for 40 years yet you feel like you want to tell me I'm gonna lose a finger. Maybe I will but it won't be on the tablesaw, I use push sticks. Religiously. Which is why I still have all my fingers. Sam Maloof pushed his stuff through with his hand and never lost a finger.

I just don't like the sawstop. It doesn't remove all of the risks, it's expensive when you forget to turn it off when you are cutting green wood, it's easy to forget to turn it back on when you switch back to dry wood, and I have never, in 40 years of using tablesaws, had any sort of fear of the tablesaw. Respect, absolutely, but a tablesaw, properly used, isn't high up on the risk scale. Free handing on the bandsaw is way way more risky yet people do it all the time.

I'm not telling you to do what I do, you can do whatever you want. I do resent, a bit, your view that I'll lose a finger. That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that. Or maybe it is just like you said, it has been 40 years of getting lucky. Or maybe not.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#225

Post by oliwarner »

luckydude wrote: post #224
oliwarner wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WFM™ here is survival bias given form. Your system hasn't failed you yet . When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit. The people saying they "need" this stuff are just saying they see avoidable risk and recognise their bodies are a finite resource worth the expense, even inconvenience of a few extra safety features. We're not talking about using sawstops in isolation. But anyway…

"When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit." By that logic I should just get rid of my 3 wood lathes, metal lathe, 2 bandsaws, drillpress, chop saw, shaper, horizontal boring machine, metal bandsaw, sawzall, circle saws, etc, because none of those have the sawstop feature. And, by the same logic, loose the 5 chainsaws, the industrial chipper, the excavator, the two tractors, the…

> That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that.

That's fair enough. I'm sorry. I truly believe you are knowledgeable in your tools and what you do with them. I think if that weren't the case, 40 years using them would have left you unable to type these comments.

But I would also put some of the other 40-80 thousand people hospitalised by table saws in the last year in your category.

And over 90% of those were hand in blade injuries. The sort of thing that is vastly eradicated by a blade that can detect a hand and deactivate.

So yes, I take your points, but epidemiologically, doing nothing and hoping people just do it better next time is more harmful to all of us than demanding better safety equipment as standard.

Perhaps that opinion is my Britishness coming through; we're paying the medical costs of our woodworkers' injuries directly.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#226

Post by luckydude »

oliwarner wrote: post #225
luckydude wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit." By that logic I should just get rid of my 3 wood lathes, metal lathe, 2 bandsaws, drillpress, chop saw, shaper, horizontal boring machine, metal bandsaw, sawzall, circle saws, etc, because none of those have the sawstop feature. And, by the same logic, loose the 5 chainsaws, the industrial chipper, the excavator, the two tractors, the…

> That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that. That's fair enough. I'm sorry. I truly believe you are knowledgeable in your tools and what you do with them. I think if that weren't the case, 40 years using them would have left you unable to type these comments. But I would also put some of the other 40-80 thousand people hospitalised by table saws in the last year in your category. And over 9…

I went and googled and, yeah, sure seems like a lot of table saw accidents. I went to the database and looked up tablesaw and bandsaw estimates. 2605 bandsaw vs 33164 tablesaw. Something is kinda weird about that. Unless everyone has a tablesaw and few people have bandsaws I'd expect that the numbers would be similar.

I'm starting to wonder if there are just a lot of stupid people using tablesaws. Which wouldn't surprise me, there are an amazing number of untrained people doing all sorts of stuff.

Whatever, I'm perfectly happy to say that sawstop is a fine idea for stupid people. I just don't need one, I don't put my fingers anywhere near any blade, that's stupid. And we have all sorts of data that says when you do stupid stuff you lose your fingers.

In my case, knock on wood, I believe I don't need that technology because I have a lot of respect for that spinning blade and don't get close to it. And what I've been trying, and apparently failing, to say is that my respect for the tablesaw is part of my mental state when I'm in the shop. I actually don't want a safer saw, it's still dangerous, it can still throw stuff at you hard enough to really hurt you, I'm fine with the protocol I have to not hurt myself.

I realize that winds people up, they think I'm Mr Cuts Corners or something, I'm not. I live on a 15 acre property, I use chainsaws, tractors, excavators, mowers, all sorts of stuff that can kill me. I do that stuff every day so I have to have a mental state of carefulness. On all the equipment. None of it is safe.

So for me, sawstop doesn't add any value, I'd use it the same way I use my current saw, with push sticks. Which is how everyone should use their saw. That's not saying I'm against sawstop or other safety equipment, it's just saying that I've got a safety protocol that works. And I won't let anyone into my shop who doesn't follow that protocol.

YMMV.

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