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John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

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Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#181

Post by Applejinx »

vacri wrote: post #124
saalweachter wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of finding your local food pantry and helping out / donating there. Most always need volunteers. Depending on the place, it can either be more effective to donate money or food. Some places have affiliations with larger collecting centers which just charge the individual pantry handling (usually something like $0.10 / lb) for food; if a place doesn't, they might prefer food donations because otherwise shopp…

> Most always need volunteers. Depending on the place, it can either be more effective to donate money or food. It should be noted that some charities are drowning in unskilled labour, and that folks shouldn't take it personally if they're turned away. Help in some other way, like you say, with money or food. A friend of mine offered to volunteer at a nearby charity and was miffed that they turned her away since she…

Money, if possible. Food banks can turn money into food more efficiently than you or me. If you are interested in donating food, consider donating 'high value' food such as a case of peanut butter: especially families with hungry children will value peanut butter as a food shelf item. It's typically rationed.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#182

Post by Applejinx »

micahbright wrote: post #48
peterburkimsher wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Basic income" would go a long way. People will try to work to make their lives better, whether they're "poor" and "rich". Not needing to worry about food and shelter would make life much easier. And I mean "basic income" for everybody. Not just citizens. Even immigrants. "For the widow, the orphan, the foreigner." - Deuteronomy 10:18, Zechariah 7:10, Matthew 25:31-46

I like how you turn a voluntary charitable contribution into forcing other people to pay. If you aren't poor, you should already be making contributions to the poor since you have such high moral standards.

That would be the most efficient mechanism for ensuring the money is re-spent, locally, supporting local small businesses and entrepreneurs. Starving people really never have Swiss bank accounts, and rarely outsource. Whatever your morals, and whatever the morals of 'the poor' as you see them, there is a pragmatic argument here that is absolutely worth forcing people to pay, much like you're forced to pay taxes: you're directly subsidizing people who are almost compelled to spend their money inside their local communities, allowing others who are more enterprising to prosper.

That's just math. Your moral feelings may have to take a back seat to pragmatism, here.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#183

Post by micheljones »

jachee wrote: post #102
philovivero wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the inventory of my life. I remember those months as a kid when the cupboards were bare, and so I'd just shrug and go to bed without dinner. Thank goodness for government-sponsored low-income lunch program. That was my only meal many days. Naturally I was surprised when recently I got informed I have white privilege by a bunch of spoiled children who've never known a day of hardship in their lives. I'm…

Don't think for a minute that our white privilege isn't the major reason we can reflect on having been poor, rather than continuing to live that reality.

AYYYY PEDDLE DAT RACIST PROPAGANDA HOMEBOI!!!

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#184

Post by micheljones »

catawbasam wrote: post #171
gerbal wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have white privilege. White privilege isn't being treated better because of your race, it's not being treated worse. White privilege is not remembering the last time you were pulled over for nothing. White privilege is not being afraid of the police. White privilege is getting let off with a warning. White privilege is expecting to be judged on your merits. White privilege is getting the benefit of the doubt.…

You overestimate the power of white privilege. It is real, but not as pervasive as you make it out to be. I do remember the last time I was pulled over for nothing. I do remember being afraid of the police. I do remember not being let off with a warning. Looking like a scruffy redneck will get you that treatment in some rich suburbs. The big advantage of being white is that it is much easier to camouflage yourself as…

It is pointless to engage racists in a reasonable discussion.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#185

Post by Applejinx »

tekromancr wrote: post #110
InclinedPlane wrote: post #13

A lot of people who have never been poor just think "oh, well, to stop being poor you just need to X, then Y, then Z." But they don't understand the implications, or the difficulty. Not spending money on anything you absolutely don't need is psychologically crushing, especially when that includes everything from dental care to replacement shoes. Finding the energy to continue advancing your employment and to work at…

Not to mention all of the financial tools you dont have access to because of no/poor credit. I remember what an incredible feeling it was when I finally worked my up to a rewards card. This magical thing that effectively makes everything I buy 1.5% cheeper. It felt like some sort of cheatcode for life. I remember then being so pissed off that I was able to have this as a rich person getting marginally richer, but not…

Oddly, I hate rewards cards because I feel like it's one more thing to keep track of.

I run a small business where I code stuff for a living, and have to continually be thinking up new stuff to survive. It's tough to weigh the value of a rewards card versus the mental bandwidth of managing a set of 'optimal buying locations' associated with rewards systems.

That said, I completely understand your feelings on the matter. When you can't do a thing, and then you're allowed to and it's giving you a discount of some sort, it's a huge help. I have a car payment that's less than I was paying on repairs on the old car I had. There was a time when I wouldn't have been allowed to enter into such an agreement.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#186

Post by Applejinx »

truxus wrote: post #44
merpnderp wrote: post #9

Being poor must in part be not knowing how not to be poor or having felonies or depression holding you back. I failed out of college and barely scraped one month of rent for an apartment. I got a shit job working the dock in a light bulb warehouse. I made friends with the truck driver who picked up orders who told me about an opening on their better paying dock. After half a year my hard work caught the eye of HR who…

Your success touched a nerve. Lots of people making excuses for how lucky you are, and how lucky others aren't. It's been known for millennia that "luck" is actually being ready for opportunity and then acting decisively when presented with opportunities. Preparation and action is what seperates winners from losers. You cant help losers win, you can only buy them time. My parents were small farmers in the 80s when it…

What you call 'losers' I call 'my customers'. Why would I want to sell only to people who 'win'? Doing that means scorning perfectly good customers, and very likely perfectly good people.

Just because people aren't as brutally committed as you or I doesn't make them bad people. I would argue that we are the bad people, and they are more likely to be the good. We are driven, ruthless obsessives (well, me, anyway) and that's why we look so saintly to our socioeconomic system, but everyone clawing their way to the top of this heavily-clawed system of business savagery is by definition a lot meaner than the regular person.

And when we triumph, it's on top of a huge pile of nice regular people who couldn't or wouldn't fight as hard or as dirty. And I see that reflected all across society, with a disturbing lack of exceptions.

Love the losers. They're your customers, your userbase, plus it's good business sense. Try HARDER to help the losers, because if you mean to be a winner, you will have to be standing on top of them all, and you had best not be too heavy or unpleasant a burden ;)

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#187

Post by merpnderp »

SSH007 wrote: post #17
merpnderp wrote: post #9

Being poor must in part be not knowing how not to be poor or having felonies or depression holding you back. I failed out of college and barely scraped one month of rent for an apartment. I got a shit job working the dock in a light bulb warehouse. I made friends with the truck driver who picked up orders who told me about an opening on their better paying dock. After half a year my hard work caught the eye of HR who…

So, you got some tremendous help at a very key point and you were able to use that momentum to continue doing well for yourself. Now, imagine you are so poor that you need some help to move up in the world, but that help never arrives. How long would you have done that shit job if the truck driver didn't point you somewhere better. Or, how about if you weren't able to scrape up anything after that one month of rent a…

Tremendous help my ass. I was sending out resumes all the time. I spent every break going over the help wanted adds in the paper. I made minimum wage, busting my ass in a mercury contaminated sweltering hellhole. Then I did the same thing on a freight dock, for a $1/more. And the reason I got "lucky" is I ran in between docks. I moved freight as fast as I could. I showed up on time. And I still spent my free time looking at the help wanted ads. If I wouldn't have gotten lucky there, I'd have gotten lucky somewhere else. Roll the dice enough and you win. Plus I had a strict budget, which kept me focused. Not many truck drivers pay off their $18K in student loans in 2.5 years, of which nearly a year was spent at minimum wage.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#188

Post by faragon »

gerbal wrote: post #133
philovivero wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the inventory of my life. I remember those months as a kid when the cupboards were bare, and so I'd just shrug and go to bed without dinner. Thank goodness for government-sponsored low-income lunch program. That was my only meal many days. Naturally I was surprised when recently I got informed I have white privilege by a bunch of spoiled children who've never known a day of hardship in their lives. I'm…

You do have white privilege. White privilege isn't being treated better because of your race, it's not being treated worse. White privilege is not remembering the last time you were pulled over for nothing. White privilege is not being afraid of the police. White privilege is getting let off with a warning. White privilege is expecting to be judged on your merits. White privilege is getting the benefit of the doubt.…

"White privilege is not being afraid of the police"

Where is that happening? Everyone should be afraid of the police, everywhere, as authority, their word is over yours.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#189

Post by wonderwonder »

Grustaf wrote: post #128
jachee wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed trap as fund-raiser > clerical error lost paid ticket > license suspended > road block as fund-raiser > zero-tolerance "suspended license == go to jail" > impounded car, $1200 bond, and jail time "waiting on the judge to post bond."

Speeding is always illegal, and not just for poor people. So is driving without a license. Do you believe those laws are unjust and/or targeting poor people?

The laws don't affect the rich and the poor in the same way.

A poor person with a suspended license cannot afford the cab ride to work and are thus forced to choose between either not going to work, losing their job and watching their children starve or taking the risk and driving. A relatively well off person just catches a cab or an uber.

An arrested poor person in jail waits days to weeks for a below average attorney to be appointed for them who will more often than not encourage them to accept a plea deal because their attorney has limited time and has to meet with 12 more poor clients today. A wealthy person has an aggressive attorney who will get to work immediately on getting their client out on bond and fighting the charges.

A poor person goes to prison. A wealthy person gets probation and is found to struggle from affluenza or a light sentence because of their "youth and clean record".

After getting out of prison a poor person struggles to find work and is stuck in a cycle. A rich person goes to a nice dinner.

Our legal system is a machine powered by the lives of the poor and the money of the wealthy.

Re: John Scalzi: Being Poor (2005)

#190

Post by csomar »

Living in a very poor country and having seen Egypt (Cairo), I shrug off when US people talk about poverty.

There is poverty as finding hardship in life and there is fighting for survival in a literal sense. Poverty in the US is hardship of life. The US still has accessible infrastructure and job market to help an average person get on his feet.

Also, I find poverty to be related to your parents. If your parents are poor and then just go out of their way to have 6 children, well, their output is going to be divided by 6 and so you'll be shit poor.

Poverty is a byproduct of culture and nature. Stupid religious cultures (as well as nature) will push poor people to multiply to guarantee survival. Since the probability of survival of their offspring is weak, it might help to have lots of them.

This makes matter worse (lots of poor people themselves multiplying). Rich people having little offspring seem to help and accentuate the problem (make the few rich people fewer and the lot of poor more).

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