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Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

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Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#121

Post by elihu »

stouset wrote: post #120
elihu wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's doubtful we'd send people to Mars as a one-way trip (though some regard that as a reasonable cost-cutting measure). The day-night cycle is almost the same. We don't know what extended time in ~40% gravity would be like, but people have lived for an extended time in zero G, which is a much more extreme change. Sailors on submarines have survived in tight quarters without natural sunlight or wide-open spaces for e…

Okay, but why ? What is anyone's purpose for going to mars en masse? Migration to the New World was spurred on by the promise of wealth, resources, and independence from existing governments. The latter is utterly implausible when you consider the total dependence colonists would have upon supply from the nations they're hypothetically fleeing. The former, well, again I suspect dependence upon supplies from the home-…

When it comes to negotiation, both sides have quite a bit of leverage. Earth (pretending for a moment that it's a monolithic political entity) can threaten to withhold supplies, whereas Mars explorers can do things Earth doesn't want them to because they aren't there to stop them. So, the situation is complicated. Earth may have the upper hand in the beginning, but that dynamic could change as Mars becomes more self-sufficient.

A lot of scientists would want to go. Ordinary people might too if they were feeling adventurous and if Musk is right and we can send people at a relatively affordable cost. There will also probably be a lot of workers to do the things that are physically demanding and not very much fun. If they're paid more to do that work on Mars than on Earth, then it could be a good deal.

Some people might want to stake a claim to some land or participate in the creation of a new government. There might be valuable natural resources like gold or platinum that make the transportation and infrastructure costs worthwhile.

Some old people might prefer walking in ~40% gravity to being confined to a wheelchair on Earth. Some people might be sick of working on made-up first-world problems (like how to get more people to click on ads) and creating shareholder value, and want to do something more challenging and more rewarding. Some people might just prefer the company of the sort of person that would move to Mars.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#122

Post by aaron695 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #10

The lower gravity than Earth bit sounds like the most debilitating thing about Martian colonization. One of the reasons why I think Venus cloud cities would be a better long-term bet for baseline humanity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8985151

> Venus cloud cities

I want to know where the fuck are our Earth based cloud cities.

Surly there's a market and it'd be (I'd guess) 3 orders of magnitude easier than Venus.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#123

Post by colordrops »

logfromblammo wrote: post #103
tomrod wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To leave your underwater habitat, you have to scuba dive or get into a submarine. You never get an unmediated experience of the outside world. Your skin touches the inside of your suit. You smell only the air from your breathing apparatus and your own breath. Forever. This sounds close to the neck beard trope, of people living in their parents basement and never seeing sunlight. Could we inadvertently be adapting t…

No. My adaptations are definitely intentional. All that sandbox-world gaming is training, for when I will be stuck inside a ~70 m^3 volume with several other people, simultaneously mining for vital resources and additional living volume using a remotely-operated robot that is not quite ready for fully autonomous operation yet. It will totally be worth lifting 250kg of human adipose tissue into LEO, I swear. If the fo…

I'm not typically a fan of unanchored humor on HN as Reddit has more than enough to go around, but I commend you on turning "neckbeard" into a verb.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#124

Post by jlebrech »

devrandomguy wrote: post #109
jlebrech wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

genius, we just need to send airlocks.

And even those could be just inflatable doughnut plugs with a pair of inwards opening flaps. You could even squeeze the air out of the lock, against the user's suit, to avoid the need for a vacuum pump!

also a 100% flawless vacuum wouldn't be that crutial, there's an atmosphere and you can pump more oxygen into the base, and also have maybe more "sphincters" to keep the air in.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#125

Post by emilp89 »

ianburrell wrote: post #93
grondilu wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite off-topic, but sometimes I even wonder if we should not "de-colonize" Earth. I first thought of that when I learnt that if all human population was living in one place with the same population density as in Tokyo, this megacity would fit in the state of California or something. That sounds extreme, but I somehow am attracted by the idea of leaving entire continents completely void of humans.

E.O. Wilson has proposed setting aside half the earth for nature. That would be achievable by protecting existing wilderness areas and connecting them together into corridors.

Which half ? Try to get humans to agree on it.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#126

Post by emilp89 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #45
baron816 wrote: post #24

I think there are going to be some very serious mental health issues for people trying to colonize Mars, especially if they're taking a one way trip. First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. That stuff matters for humans who have gotten used to 24 hour days and 9.807 m/s^2 gravity over the last 200,000 years. Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mar…

> First, you have to deal with a different day-night cycle and the reduced gravity. There's more difference between Alaska and the Equator than the extra 40 minutes Mars introduces, and there don't seem to be significant mental health issues from zero gravity on the ISS. Bone density, sure. > I'm betting the novelty of it will wear of in an hour (tops) of landing there. I know a geologist who's still getting super-ex…

> and there don't seem to be significant mental health issues from zero gravity on the ISS

Wrong. The astronauts do have mental health issues. Google it.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#127

Post by RugnirViking »

cname wrote: post #63
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, you're going to have to deal with boredom and cabin fever. Mars seems cool in the abstract--"explore another world!"--but its just a big, completely dead desert. I'm betting the novelty of it will wear of in an hour (tops) of landing there. Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness? It continues to be amazing for days. Anything that new and different definitely induces novelty more tha…

> Have you ever been backpacking in a desert, mountains, wilderness? I'm guessing that being on Mars isn't even remotely similar to being out in the harshest Earth environment.

It presumably will, however be somewhat easier than being on the space station, which people have managed for over a year with relatively few adverse effects.

Of course, these are the best of the best, specifically selected because they are focused and driven, but we aren't going to be sending just anyone to mars either.

Its difficult to fathom quite how much there is to do in space. Astronauts aren't sitting around, but constantly performing maintenance and fielding science requests from all the world's top researchers.

Consider additionally people living about a nuclear submarine have similar freedoms, and there are many that willingly get back on board even when their mandated time is up because its not a terrible job. Some things the human psyche can work around when you have a constant supply of mental stimulation and a fulfilling life.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#128

Post by RugnirViking »

emilp89 wrote: post #125
ianburrell wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E.O. Wilson has proposed setting aside half the earth for nature. That would be achievable by protecting existing wilderness areas and connecting them together into corridors.

Which half ? Try to get humans to agree on it.

well realistically you only need to get the governments of the UN to agree which is a little less daunting. I can easily imaging taking the Sahara, Siberia, the interior of Australia, and the steppe would get us a good chunk of the way there. Adding on the amazon might be possible with effort.

Of course, these areas have substantial mineral/oil deposits that make the current political situtation difficult. But it's not outside of the realms of possibility that this may eventually stop being the case, such as how Britain's one ubiquitous coal mines are all closed now.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#129

Post by stouset »

elihu wrote: post #121
stouset wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but why ? What is anyone's purpose for going to mars en masse? Migration to the New World was spurred on by the promise of wealth, resources, and independence from existing governments. The latter is utterly implausible when you consider the total dependence colonists would have upon supply from the nations they're hypothetically fleeing. The former, well, again I suspect dependence upon supplies from the home-…

When it comes to negotiation, both sides have quite a bit of leverage. Earth (pretending for a moment that it's a monolithic political entity) can threaten to withhold supplies, whereas Mars explorers can do things Earth doesn't want them to because they aren't there to stop them. So, the situation is complicated. Earth may have the upper hand in the beginning, but that dynamic could change as Mars becomes more self-…

I think you missed a subtlety in my argument. I'm not saying nobody will want to go to Mars. Obviously some will. I'm arguing that this is an extremely small contingent of people who are willing to make this journey when there's little social or economic reason to go.

> If they're paid more to do that work on Mars than on Earth, then it could be a good deal.

What good is money when you're stuck on a lifeless rock with no atmosphere, and nothing to actually spend that money on? What goods, exactly, do you think people are going to be buying on Mars — consider that the shipping costs alone would necessitate you being paid an absolutely astronomical (ha!) salary for your labor.

> Some people might want to stake a claim to some land or participate in the creation of a new government.

You're missing the greater point. None of this matters when you're occupying a dead, lifeless rock that will be completely and totally dependent upon the governments of the Earth you're trying to escape from.

Re: Living on Mars: The Stuff You Never Thought About

#130

Post by elihu »

stouset wrote: post #129
elihu wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to negotiation, both sides have quite a bit of leverage. Earth (pretending for a moment that it's a monolithic political entity) can threaten to withhold supplies, whereas Mars explorers can do things Earth doesn't want them to because they aren't there to stop them. So, the situation is complicated. Earth may have the upper hand in the beginning, but that dynamic could change as Mars becomes more self-…

I think you missed a subtlety in my argument. I'm not saying nobody will want to go to Mars. Obviously some will. I'm arguing that this is an extremely small contingent of people who are willing to make this journey when there's little social or economic reason to go. > If they're paid more to do that work on Mars than on Earth, then it could be a good deal. What good is money when you're stuck on a lifeless rock wit…

Life on Earth is hard for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons -- debt, lack of employment, lack of opportunity, social unrest or civil war in the more unstable parts of the world. If you can start over somewhere else where it's possible to have a somewhat middle-class standard of living, it might not matter that much that the environment outside is harsh and inhospitable.

If life on Mars turns into a "work 16 hours a day, every day, to be able to buy your daily ration of CO2 filters from the company store" dystopia, then maybe everyone had better stay on Earth, but if we can at least avoid that scenario, then for a lot of people the prospect of being able to survive and have a stable job and a place to live and a community to be part of is appealing even if it's on a lifeless rock.

It's also not clear that Mars will remain totally dependent on Earth in the long term.

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