ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech • Hacker News Board

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#141

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

gkoberger wrote: post #13

gedy wrote: post #7

> We ... take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence. So does this apply to Antifa, BlackBloc, et al as well?

This post doesn't blacklist any specific organizations, but rather any case that involve violence. The ACLU will likely continue[1] to defend peaceful white supremacists. The ban will go for any situation or organization that involves violence. As for Antifa, I've been unable to find any videos/pictures/unbiased reports that Antifa started any of the violence this past weekend. I don't understand the need to equate t…

> If the KKK didn't exist, Antifa wouldn't exist

The Anti-Fascist movement is, as the name suggests, concerned with more than the KKK, but, more broadly, it's sole uniting purpose would be absent without fascist, neo-fascist, and related violent racist movements.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#142

Post by ptaipale » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:27 PM UTC

ece wrote: post #129

gedy wrote: post #7

> We ... take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence. So does this apply to Antifa, BlackBloc, et al as well?

This is the wrong question to be asking, antifa and blackboc by definition only show up at fascist and racist rallies. This is what this statement is about: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/nyregion/aclu-free-speech...

You mean that the G20 meeting of state heads in Hamburg was a "fascist and racist rally"?

Antifa and the extreme left do apply that kind of rhetoric in their critique of "capitalism", but I find it quite extreme and not to be taken seriously.

Still, the black block trashed the city and attacked people with deadly force (it's a wonder no one was killed.)

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#143

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

cc81 wrote: post #57

gedy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'm referring to events such as the Berkeley Riots [1] where the violence was at least partly incited by Antifa. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

From what I gather Antifa in the US is extremely diverse in tactics, priorities (beyond the very broad “combat fascism/racism”), and, well, pretty much everything else. Which isn't surprising since it's small autonomous groups in at least two separate looser national organizations (“loose affiliation groups” may be more accurate than “organizations”).

Obviously, the more extreme elements get the most press coverage.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#144

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71

cc81 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

I don't think you understand what fascism is.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#145

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71

cc81 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

I don't think you understand what fascism is.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#146

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #104

mschuster91 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing fascist in beating up Nazis.

Please do not condone the use of violence against (insert bad people) on HN. That is totally beyond any legitimate conversation and is illegal and morally repugnant.

Noting that something does not meet the definition of “fascism” isn't condoning it.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#147

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #142

ece wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong question to be asking, antifa and blackboc by definition only show up at fascist and racist rallies. This is what this statement is about: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/nyregion/aclu-free-speech...

You mean that the G20 meeting of state heads in Hamburg was a "fascist and racist rally"? Antifa and the extreme left do apply that kind of rhetoric in their critique of "capitalism", but I find it quite extreme and not to be taken seriously. Still, the black block trashed the city and attacked people with deadly force (it's a wonder no one was killed.)

[deleted]

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#148

Post by ece » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 11:09 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #142

ece wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong question to be asking, antifa and blackboc by definition only show up at fascist and racist rallies. This is what this statement is about: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/nyregion/aclu-free-speech...

You mean that the G20 meeting of state heads in Hamburg was a "fascist and racist rally"? Antifa and the extreme left do apply that kind of rhetoric in their critique of "capitalism", but I find it quite extreme and not to be taken seriously. Still, the black block trashed the city and attacked people with deadly force (it's a wonder no one was killed.)

There is a point between a peaceful environmental or justice or equality protest and something as inherently violent as fascism or racism which was the mix in Charlottesville. Historically, fascism has always had an aspect of violence, and the same with racism. You simply cannot make the same case with either antifa or even black block, they are reactionary to fascism and oppression, if not racism respectively.

Black bloc has its roots opposing police violence, and this is consistent through their history, so I should have said "fascist, racist and anti-oppression rally"

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#149

Post by thescribe » Fri, Aug 18, 2017, 12:44 AM UTC

liberte82 wrote: post #128

retox wrote: post #86

Words are not violence. My rights don't end where your feelings begin.

Is driving over people violence?

Yes, but advocating for the (peaceful) establishment of entho-states is not. Even if it makes me think less of them.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#150

Post by PhasmaFelis » Fri, Aug 18, 2017, 1:06 AM UTC

bloobloobloo wrote: post #106

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jewishness "an inherently violent ideology of ethnic cleansing"? For that matter, is Communism? Marxist-Leninist governments don't have a great track record, but there are plenty of individual pacifist hippie commies; the ideology of common ownership of production is not inherently violent and racist like Nazism and the Klan are.

Jewishness is a religion of ethnic nationalism. As in, there's a DNA test to join. Whether they actually practice genocide today depends on what definition you're using, but count up the deaths from pogroms that Jews are responsible for and the toll far exceeds Hitler's. Are you saying that white ethnic nationalism is inherently violent while Jewish ethnic nationalism is not? > Marxist-Leninist governments don't have…

> Jewishness is a religion of ethnic nationalism. As in, there's a DNA test to join.

This is not true. Source: http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/becomingjewish.html Also, you seem to have confused Judaism with Israel.

> count up the deaths from pogroms that Jews are responsible for and the toll far exceeds Hitler's.

Source, please.

> Hitler certainly never mentioned ethnic cleansing in any speech or writings.

This is a straight-up lie. Read his speeches yourself: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Hitler%20Sp... Also Google the definition of "ethnic cleansing".